I think they actually did float the "New Horsemen" idea out there twice, the first time it just didn't go and the second time someone (Arn?) nixed it.
I felt bad for Madusa the night after she was retired because you can just tell how little the crowd cares when she comes out to give a "final address" (which they can't even do in the ring, they have to do at the ramp) and she starts crying.
Just last night I was watching the final Clash of the Champions (XXXV, August 1997, why they canceled the clash I will never understand) and sprinkled throughout it were segments cross-promoting fellow TBS show Dinner & A Movie. The first segment was pointless, but mostly harmless. The second segment, however, I LOVED. The Dinner & A Movie named all their pun-filled dishes stuff like Savage Garden Salad, nWoysters, and DDP creame puffs (ok, that one didn't work) which causes DDP to come out and Diamond Cut one of them.
Here's the point of this post though, in 1997, I would have loathed both segments as pointless. Over on DDTDigest (a good snapshot in time), whom I read because I agreed with so often (and read now so I know when I'm missing Benoit footage) that's pretty much the reaction they had then.
Do I like it now because it's nostalgia? Or because the state of current weekly wrestling has deteriorated to the point that such a segment could air?
They cancelled the Clash because they debuted Thunder a few months later and Nitro went to 3 hours. 5 hours of wrestling a week kind of eliminates the appeal or need for a "free per view" 2 or 3 times a year.
I'm actually up to the Clash in my viewing and just passed it because I didn't have it. But I just downloaded it so I'll give it a watch. Even if none of the matches really call out to me. I liked Clashes a lot. But one thing I'm gonna watch is for is that of late I've noticed that Mongo is INSANELY over. The crowds LOVE him. When he comes in during a tag match or hits someone with a move the crowds freak out. Its weird. Now a lot of it of course has to do with the great heel work of Jarrett, Eddie, and even Alex Wright and Debra. And the Horsemen are popular at the moment with Ric, Arn retiring, Curt joining, and Benoit putting Sullivan down and refocusing. But Mongo is personally getting these crazy pops.
And then Nitro goes to Wisconsin and they HATE him. Which makes me laugh.
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Post by salmonjunkie on May 6, 2008 1:05:21 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but even I liked Mongo back in the day. It's because he was part of that awesome 84 bears. And he spoke bad-ass nonsense gibberish before Steiner did.
Watched Fall Brawl '97 as I was trying to fall asleep last night and it was such a good show that I ended up going to bed WAY late and fucking up my day. First 6 or 7 matches on the show are really good. Nothing GREAT but its like good match after good match until you realize there hasn't been a dull moment for 2 hours. And I don't know how to describe it but the show is... impactful? Every match is this high impact one where they're either hitting each other super hard or making big moves that shake the ring. Its like Knute Rockne gave the WCW lockerroom a pep talk before the show and they all went out there looking to bust ass. And this comes off a string of PPVs that I could have saved time FFing through.
Eddie vs Jericho opens and its probably nothing we haven't seen before. But like I said, they're just hitting each other with everything they have in this high paced and crisp match. And this was Jericho when he was still in CW form so that's fun to watch. He's also JUST about to start his heel turn and he's got some fun frustrated mannerisms when he can't put Eddie down that remind you of what he'll do in the next decade.
Steiners vs Harlem Heat is nothing special but a hard hitting match where both sides do what they do well. Heat with their great kicks, Steiners with their great suplexes, no down moments, just start to finish.
Alex Wright vs Ultimo Dragon comes next and I'm sitting there realizing the problem with Wright. He's a good wrestler but he's rubbing shoulders with Dragon, Benoit, Malenko, Eddie, Jericho, Rey, Juvi, JJ, Psicosis, Regal, etc. He's a talented guy but he's not as talented as the group he's with that is basically made up of the group that will be the stars of the next decade or just great workers who never got their big break. And he and Dragon don't seem to mix well because Wright's got like 6 inches on Dragon and its screwing up some of his kicks. But as I'm thinking all of this it occurs to me that I've been watching this match for a LONG time and its kept my interest. Wiki says a 18:43 minute match and it never really drags. Never gets great but it stays entertaining and as you realize how late its been and as the two guys start to get visibly sluggish and tired the drama that the end HAS to come momentarily sucks you in.
Jarrett vs Dean is another solid and crisp match between guys who work well together. Faces of Fear vs Wrath & Mortis reminds me why I once loved the Faces because they just kick the ever loving crud out of Wrath & Mortis. And the freaks hit back. I mean, it was a FIGHT. And then its followed up by Giant vs Scott Norton where THEY kick each other's asses. Norton shows that he's basically one of the only men in the sport able to toss the Giant around and Giant pulls out his freaky agility to count with kip ups and dropkicks. Its a short match but one where the two NEVER stop going.
Then Luger & DDP vs Hall & Savage falls flat. Pretty mediocre work and its a match I'd actually just seen a few times on Nitro. Plus this is when Larry Zbyszko starts to get annoying with his feud with Hall and the nWo and its kinda tough to listen to. And I like the Legend but him RANTING all through the match is just too much.
And then Wargames with nWo vs Horsemen. Its not a really great WarGames but it keeps up with the theme of the shows because Benoit, Mongo, Flair, Syxx, Konnan, Nash... they're hard hitters who look like they're trying to kill each other. Anyone who knows the match knows how it goes and I imagine the opinions of that vary. The DDT digest recaps I'm reading HATED it but there's an air of markism (is that a word?) to his comments. I still don't remember how I felt about it at the time but its an effective story 10 years later.
But really, the show was just match after match of guys looking like they (a) came with their working shoes on and (b) REALLY want to win their matches. Its a show that caught me off guard and made me be grumpy all day due to lack of sleep.
Also in minor notes I saw Scott D'Amore on Nitro a few episodes back. He was in a 3-on-1 handicap match vs the Giant (I believe his partners with Lenny Lane and "Jumping" Joey Maggs). It just amuses me when you see guys early in their careers like that. And then it reminds me that D'Amore is actually quite young and was just a kid back then.
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Anyone who knows the match knows how it goes and I imagine the opinions of that vary. The DDT digest recaps I'm reading HATED it but there's an air of markism (is that a word?) to his comments. I still don't remember how I felt about it at the time but its an effective story 10 years later.
It IS an effective story. Problem is, it never got a proper payoff. I think Flair gets Hennig on the next two PPV's and wins neither match. A third installment was supposed to happen at Starrcade in a cage but didn't go down for reasons I'm STILL not aware of. (DDP took Flair's place and won the U.S. Title.) Then, rather than the Horsemen getting ANY retribution AT ALL for what went down, Flair moves into a feud with Bret Hart, Benoit gets moved over to an AWESOME feud with Raven, and Mongo... well, I don't remember what Mongo ended up doing. So, the fallout from this match (and Arn's retirement and NWO mockup of it) sees Flair get nothing back on Hennig, a Raven/Benoit feud, and a lone Hart/Flair match that also went nowhere.
That's the problem I have with that match. That match pissed me off more than any match in the history of wrestling* from a mark point of view and my guys never got a SNIFF of revenge.
* In fact, there's only one other match that's even close to pissing me off the way that War games pissed me off... and that's Rock/Austin II at WMX7. Why that one pissed me off the way it did, I'm not quite sure. I knew Rocky was gonna lose - D'Lo Brown told me so. I think I was at a point where Austin, hot on the hells of his comeback, was popping crowds bigger than my man Rocky, and I didn't like that. So I wanted to see Rock take it out of his ass... and man, did that finish piss Rocky fans off. Loved where Austin went from there though. And again, the good guy never really got a proper revenge, unless a Rock Bottom after singing Delta Dawn and The Gambler and Margaritaville and a tainted pinfall loss in a Survivor Series match counts as revenge. [/tangent]
I always knew, knew in my heart that if they just gave Alex Wright enough of an opportunity he would get over and. I was positive he was going to rule the Cruiser division when they made him Berlyn. Poor kid, he shoulda been somebody!
Eh, they were basically giving him an opportunity here. He won the CW title and the TV title and was being pushed well for the span of 3 or 4 months. And he was getting booed, but I don't know. Like I said, it just felt like he was doing fine but was basically being outclassed by all his peers. It was clear that in this group of guys Wright was not the right one to be getting pushed.
Of course Disco Inferno just won the TV title from him and Jackie came out to challenge him so I'm already missing Das Wunderkind.
You're absolutely right, Mike. The nWo was boasting that they killed the Horsemen and they basically did. It was yet another example of the nWo winning every important battle with WCW and WCW never managing to get their revenge. But I was trying to think of it without the hindsight of what happens or doesn't. Just how it plays at the time. And the thing was that part of me wonders if it was bad because of the same principle. Because the nWo KEEPS beating WCW. Because the nWo just mocked Arn's retirement and punked out the Horsemen and this is supposed to be the Horsemen getting their revenge. But the nWo just beats them down more and breaks them. It definitely sucked later when Flair and the Horsemen never get their proper revenge and the nWo effectively do kill the Horsemen. But I wonder if it just sucked because the Horsemen should have gotten the duke there. But if they had gotten their revenge at Starrcade with a new 4th member maybe its all worthwhile and this betrayal and low just makes the high epic.
I mean, can you imagine that? A Starrcade where the Horsemen get their ultimate revenge on the nWo while Sting gets a clean victory over Hogan to take the title? Maybe toss in Luger, DDP, and Giant scoring wins. Just an all out WCW victory. Who would ever have imagined WCW would never WANT to book themselves to have a high like that and actually get wins and look like they can hang with the nWo?
My big problem with the Wargames angle is really the same problem I have with entire nWo story at this stage. If the attack on the Horsemen was so heinous and the nWo were such threats... WHY DID NOONE COME OUT!? Luger, DDP, and Giant were all on the card and had JUST wrestled. Shouldn't they have been glued to the monitor watching this? Steiners, Harlem Heat, Faces of Fear, Jericho, Malenko... all have had trouble with the nWo and were on the card yet none of them are apparently remotely interested in helping the Horsemen out and saving Flair the brutal beating. Its the perfect extension of the Hog Wild PPV where Luger loses the title back to Hogan. The Nitro before the whole lockerroom empties to celebrate with Luger. Everyone's talking about solidarity and WCW. Yet 6 days later the entire nWo roster is out helping Hogan and NOONE is helping Luger. Not his friends in DDP, the Giant, and the Steiners. Not the Horsemen. Noone. And this would be fine if they ever actually paid off on the story with Sting, Piper, or someone else uniting them and calling them out on their lack of solidarity. But noone ever does.
WCW is just consistently impotent against the nWo. For all the talk that they want to stop the nWo and don't like what's happening noone EVERY does what they should obviously be doing! Wargames is just another big example of it.
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Huh. The same night that Goldberg got his first win over Hugh Morrus in a big upset Disco upsets Wright for the TV title, the Faces of Fear upset the Steiners with a clean win, and Hector Garza upsets Scott Hall. That's an interesting little theme for the show.
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Post by Outback Frito Pendejo on May 8, 2008 11:17:37 GMT -5
The nWo angle required a ton of suspension of disbelief. The entire company had to resort to "stupid ninja style" to allow a tiny faction (in the beginning) to run roughshod over them. Month after month, 1 or 2 guys would be fighting a lonely battle and getting beaten down.
Of course, the whole idea that the corporate bosses would just allow this to go on is something you just had to let slide. I do remember a brief cameo by a real Turner executive, very late in the nWo's run, to over-rule Bischoff once. Presumably he'd just gotten around to noticing something was wrong.
Yeah, I know this place pretty good. I went to law school here.[My5:]
Eh, they kind of cover most of that stuff. Early on the nWo is making ninja attacks so it kind of makes sense. WCW is disorganized and paranoid and nWo is striking at the right time. And Bischoff is behind the scenes pulling strings. Once they get big they have the numbers to get away with most of what they do and Bischoff is still paving the way with his office seat. Then they do send a Turner exec to deal with Bischoff and he does strip him of his position (that JJ Dillon and then Piper take over). Eric basically becomes a glorified manager at that point but they say that he made a lot of contracts to give nWo power. Plus for whatever reason WCW put up a lot of stakes at Wargames and Uncensored. The nWo won the rights to wrestle for any title at any time supposedly (even though they never seem to care to use it) and to have their own TV show (even though they never get that besides those weird nWo Saturday Night segments and the occasional hijack of Nitro).
I mean, it still requires some suspension of disbelief probably to think Bischoff could do all that stuff and that WCW would agree to give over power and privileges in a couple of matches. Then again, WCW was routinely stupid in this angle.
Its just annoying to see EVERY week the nWo beatdown WCW guys and at best once every other week 3 or 4 main eventers stand together. DDP, Sting, Luger, Giant, and Piper SOMETIMES hang together. But noone else seems to care and half the time when Piper or DDP are being beat down the rest of the guys are nowhere to be seen. And the thing is, the announcers are SCREAMING about this. They're furious that the lockerroom is nowhere to be seen. And yet apparently noone ever brings this up. I'm just waiting for ONE time for someone to grab a microphone and confront Piper or Luger or DDP and say "What the fuck?! We gotta get our shit together because I'm tired of getting my ass kicked while you're in the shower or driving home or something." The announcers screaming never seem to bring it up to anyone who matters. Its just this ridiculous gap that asks us to believe something really weird. Not that WCW isn't thinking to get together. That somehow the guys thinking about this aren't saying anything to anyone and that noone is hearing them when they're yelling it on national TV. The hell?
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The worst thing about 24/7 is the pick your big one where people invariably vote for the worst piece of dreck offered.
They've got the photos next to 93 and 95 mixed up and part of me thinks it's on purpose just so fans will think Bret won in 95 and continue voting for awful shows.
In case you don't know, KOTR 93 (the one Bret did win) was a fucking awesome show in which Bret had three great matches (including a MOTY candidate with Perfect), 96 was another good show (HBK/Bulldog, Austin 3:16) and KOTR 95 was one of worst shows ever aired. I don't even know why the have it as an option.
I've always thought Buff was an example of someone who worked themself up the chain, got to the top (well their top), then just quit.
Then he did softcore porn...
Lucky's post had me remembering him all fondly and then you had to go and catch me off-guard like that. Seriously, what's this about a Buff porno?
Back on-topic (or more-so, anyway), I think I'm just going to say "fuck it" and get all the all the PPVs from Slamboree 96 to Starcade 97 and enjoy myself. Benoit will still be hard to watch, but to hell with it.
You know what's funny, though? I'm reading this thread and I realized that back in the day, I only tuned in for 2 major reasons from 96-98 and they were the Cruisers/undercard and Sting terrorizing the nWo. Yet that alone was enough to make me forget about WWE for those two years. Now just imagine if they had got their act together and had used Flair and Hart (that was only 98, obviously) properly, not over-booked the nWo, not wasted time with Leno and the other guests and the hundreds of other creative brainfarts that plagued them. Turner would own Vince right now, I truly believe that.
Yeah, I was just watching the Kevin Sullivan DVD about the end of WCW and towards the end he just starts imagining what happens if Goldberg and Bret never got hurt... if Hall and Steiner weren't headcases... if the Radicals, Konnan, Rey, and Douglas had given him a chance... if Hogan didn't feel the need to play political games at every step of the way... If WCW had just had the good sense and opportunity to use all the talent available to them at which point he as booker wouldn't have to do a damn thing. They'd do all the work and WCW would demolish Vince purely on the talent and their hard work.
By the way, watching a Sullivan shoot was so weird because I realized how foolish I am. I'm watching Sullivan sit there smiling, speaking frankly and saying nice things about everyone, and generally coming off like a pretty decent guy... and it feels so wrong. I'm just expecting an evil bastard ready to kill the interviewer and put him in the tree of woe. Not some guy who is going out of his way not to say a bad thing about Kevin Nash, Hulk Hogan, Chris Benoit, Scott Hall, AOL execs, Vince Russo, or anyone. It was weird.
Because if they gave you the good stuff you'd never watch the bad stuff. Its actually reasonable business sense to offer you JUST enough goodness to keep you subscribing and then giving you crap you'd have no interest in to fill the rest. Keep you subscribing for years and years and years as there's always a bunch of stuff that they've never given you and you haven't recorded or rewatched on your DVR a dozen times to keep you subscribing.
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I haven't posted in hear awhile but I've been watching again. I'm in the summer of '98. This is probably the turning point for WCW. Shows are starting to drag hard and there are bad signs. Rodman just showed back up and there's a big announcement being hyped which I'm pretty sure is Karl Malone. That means Leno can't be far behind. Bischoff just challenged Vince and "beat" him on PPV by CO and he's doing a lot of talking on TV, which means those NWO Live segments can't be far away. The tag titles were just contested in a singles matches after months of the titles not even being on TV. And of course the world title hasn't been defended in... well, whenever Hogan won the belt. 3 months ago? At least 2 PPVs straight with no title match.
Its not all bad. The Wolfpack has formed and wow are they over even if I still hate Luger and Sting joining. Well, Sting at least. Luger is whatever and it did save his career but boy is he lame trying to act cool with them. Goldberg just won the US title and boy is he super over. DDP is about to get his main event push (which will of course play out in multiple tag matches, but still). Jericho is feuding with Malenko and routinely being the star of Nitro with his lists or readings of law books. Booker and Benoit just completed their Best of Seven. Raven and Saturn are having friction and Kanyon is feuding with them for some pretty cool matches and this means Kidman wins the CW title soon which I marked out for.
But you can feel the tide turning in WCW and I know what's in store. I'm kinda glad that my collection starts to get less complete now. No wonder this is the point in WCW history that people don't feel compelled to put on the web.
I mainly typed this up because I want to say what a silly mark I am. Best of Seven is over and Benoit calls Booker to the ring. Booker comes with the TV title and his brother (which I marked for a week ago when Stevie Ray returned, but am sad because I know what is coming). Benoit shows respect and says he'll be his tag partner whenever he wants, which Stevie of course takes offense to and attacks him for. Booker kinda tries to stop him but doesn't want to fight him which leads to the return of Mongo (meh) to lay it to Stevie. Booker busts this up and the two teams part. Which leads to Benoit saying "I'm not with black and white, I'm not with red and black, if you want to know who I'm with..."
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And I mark. I'm silly. But the good news is that if I remember correctly Arn's return and the reformation of the Horsemen isn't long after Kidman's CW win so its coming soon. Of course it all falls apart quickly, so whatever. Still.
And hey, Chono and Tenzan on Nitro with the IWGP Tag Titles. Too bad they're fighting High Voltage.
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I'm an idiot. That's not why I posted this. I posted this to say that Great American Bash '98 is a really awesome show. 15+ minute Booker/Benoit. 15 minute Kanyon/Saturn. 15 minute Jericho/Malenko. 15 minute TV match with Finlay vs Booker/Benoit winner. 15 minute Chavo/Eddie (Chavo's still young enough to have potential and he's starting the crazy bit). There's a nothing Juvi/Reese match tossed in and a generic Goldberg/Konnan match but whatever. They're not bad and don't really break up the flow. Hogan/Hart vs Savage/Piper DOES break up the flow and as usual you can trust Hogan to hurt a show. But it doesn't go too long and Sting/Giant is the main event and is actually pretty fun with Sting bouncing around trying to take Giant down. And Giant is now turning into "The Big Show" both in the ring and with his character and really hitting his stride.
But for like the first 2 hours the show is all WCW midcard kicking ass and all of them given 15 minutes or more. Really shows how crazy talented WCW is at this stage and how if you ignore all the nWo stuff there's a really awesome company.
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Crazy Chavo doesn't start until 1998? 24/7 is only on 97 and he's (in his sparse appearances) doing the "I'll show Uncle Eddie" type stuff with Eddie leaving him in the ring to fend for himself.
If I remember correctly that story basically plays out in small doses for a year where Eddie is the black sheep, Chavo is carrying the weight of 3 generations, Tenay tells us that they grew up like brothers and are basically the same age, and they kinda clash but never really feud. The two interact every once and awhile on Nitro but its never really a big story. Sometimes Chavo is trying to win Eddie over to the face side, sometimes Eddie is trying to win Chavo over to the heel side, sometimes Eddie's just screwing him. Its less a story/feud and more character traits.
Chavo has enough sometime in early '98 and wrestles Eddie on the grounds that whoever wins gets to boss the other around. Eddie of course wins and they start the whole "Eddie Guerrero is My Favorite Wrestler/Cheat To Win" thing with Chavo as Eddie's slave basically. Eddie spends a few months pushing Chavo, encouraging him to cheat, pushing him around when he loses, telling him how disappointed Grandma, Chavo Sr, Mando, and Hector are. Then Chavo finally snaps in the summer and starts to freak Eddie out. If I remember correctly soon Eddie will start up the lWo and refuse admittance to Chavo and Pepe (who has yet to make an appearance as Chavo just started getting batty).
And watching this stuff I just keep thinking to Serg arguing that Eddie HAS to be face because all that stuff Eddie was doing in WWE as a face he was doing in WCW as a VERY effective and over heel. If Eddie wanted to play a heel he could. He just never really did in those "Lie, Cheat, and Steal" days in WWE. He was clearly playing a cool heel we were going to cheer. He could be a dick if he wanted to be.
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Reading through this thread reminds me of how 'lightning in a bottle' wrestling was for me from 1995-2001 or so. I still love reading through all of the DDT Digest show recaps, as well, jogging my memory for all of the markout moments.
The problem is, when I'm actually watching the shows, they really do fall flat. I"m all for old wrestling and wrestling history, but I subscribed to WWE 24/7 for about three months and just nixed the subscription because I found after about six weeks that I had no interest in watching. So sad, really.
Example: I was actually in attendance at the Palace of Auburn Hills for the 3-hour Nitro where Luger beat Hogan for the belt, and luckily for me, that Nitro was up while I had access. I tried to watch that bad boy three times and just couldn't even fake interest, which sucked because I was SUPER excited to sit down and watch - I just found myself non-plussed with a lot of the action. I mean, everything involving DDP was still pretty awesome, but the shows didn't hold my attention. READING about them was fine - trying to watch was a little painful, though.
Its a context thing though. Why would Luger/Hogan hold your attention now? It certainly wasn't a good match. Hell, it was probably a horrible match. But it was all about emotion and context. But if you haven't watched a year's worth of shows where the nWo is terrorizing WCW, where Hogan is holding the title hostage, where Luger is the one guy who has consistently stood up for WCW and fought the nWo for that full year... then why would you care? I mean, intellectually I still can't get behind Luger being the hero of WCW. Watching all these Nitros, Thunders, and PPVs I had most of the context and it felt more right to me. But I still couldn't really get into it because I watched that year of "nWo vs WCW" in a few months. So I lose that context in which Luger really was ripping the title away from Hogan after a year of fighting the nWo. How cleaning the belt and seeing WCW celebrate together was something I hadn't seen in a year.
So I don't think its so much "lightning in a bottle" as it is that wrestling doesn't work great rewatching unless (a) its a great self contained match or (b) you have that context.
I see all the time how much ECW falls flat now but I just don't think anyone is getting how well built those characters were and how deep those stories are. A random Dreamer/Raven match won't excite you. It was 1 chapter in a book.
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Point taken, Lucky. I mean, I really am still geeked at the general thought of going back and reprising the glory years before the fall of WCW ... Just somehow sitting through the full three-hour Nitros just isn't my bag anymore.