Dushku is about 1/10th of the actress she'd need to be to pull off this role.
This role is moronic anyway and the show is creepy and stupid.
Lets remember Firefly may be my favorite show ever and I like Angel a ton. I like Whedon.
The show is creepy. Have I mentioned that?
I feel like I'm watching a horrible Fox Sci Fi show from the '90s.
The Fed is horrible and rather creepy himself.
Weekly rapes are REALLY creepy.
This show makes me rethink Joss Whedon and find him creepy.
I'll watch Ep3 because Dr. Horrible was hilarious. But I officially have zero hopes that I won't hate this show and never watch it again.
EDIT: I love Amy Acker as much as any other Angel fan but her casting SCREAMS of stunt casting by Whedon to satisfy a fanbase with an actress they care enough about that they'll stay interested in her character no matter how poorly developed it is and seemingly tacked on to a shitty, shitty show.
I would have lost no respect for Whedon from a bad show, because really, I didn't think he was anything special going in. But THAT makes me border on calling him a hack.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Dushku is about 1/10th of the actress she'd need to be to pull off this role.
This role is moronic anyway and the show is creepy and stupid.
Lets remember Firefly may be my favorite show ever and I like Angel a ton. I like Whedon.
The show is creepy. Have I mentioned that?
I feel like I'm watching a horrible Fox Sci Fi show from the '90s.
The Fed is horrible and rather creepy himself.
Weekly rapes are REALLY creepy.
This show makes me rethink Joss Whedon and find him creepy.
I'll watch Ep3 because Dr. Horrible was hilarious. But I officially have zero hopes that I won't hate this show and never watch it again.
EDIT: I love Amy Acker as much as any other Angel fan but her casting SCREAMS of stunt casting by Whedon to satisfy a fanbase with an actress they care enough about that they'll stay interested in her character no matter how poorly developed it is and seemingly tacked on to a shitty, shitty show.
I would have lost no respect for Whedon from a bad show, because really, I didn't think he was anything special going in. But THAT makes me border on calling him a hack.
Keep posting drunk. It's good. You don't come across as a horrible fucking asshole at all.
It is a bit underwhelming, but I'll give it some more time to pick up. I have to say though that I do respect Whedon for not going back to the well of "oh-so-witty pop culture obsessed people with a penchant for creating adjectives by adding "ey" to the end of nouns" formula his other shows had which made then recognisably Whedonesque, but also kinda samey seeming in tone*. He's just not really managed to do anything equally as special with Dollhouse yet. Also, do you hate the show's creepiness for being creepy in itself, or because you think it's unintentional? Because I think it's kind of the point, it being creepy. I don't think Whedon was expecting anybody to think otherwise when they started watching it. Within the Dollhouse, he's only got one character questioning this, and outside again, he's got just the one. He's not beating us over the head with it, he's just letting it come across naturally. And did you not think it was stunt casting when Firefly got cancelled, and he put Nathan Fillion, Gina Torres and Adam Baldwin in Buffy and Angel? Besides, Whedon often reuses the same actors, even for smaller guest roles (like the undercover Alliance cop in Firefly's pilot was also in Angel and Buffy as different demons. Andrew's actor was one of Harmony's vampire minions, and Summer Glau was a ballet dancer in Angel once.)
*the character who seemed most likely to be like that was Echo's technician, who I expected to be a kinda Xander/Trio combo, but there's something really slimey about him, he's like the guy who "keeps" the psychics in Minority Report, but less benign seeming.
Yeah, I haven't watched last night's episode yet, but the first two really left me wanting more of the camaraderie of previous Whedon shows. I just don't feel like these people are part of any sort of real team. Whedon's dialogue is usually a LOT more entertaining. Unfortunately, I have to agree with Drunky on a few points. The show seems creepy when it doesn't need to be. Stu, I agree that the concept itself should make the show creepy, but I think the constant reference to rape is a little over the top.
And if you think Whedon's been stunt-casting so far, just wait until you see Alpha. *sigh*
I was so looking forward to this show. I just feel really let down. But I'll continue watching, because I really hope Joss falls into SOME of his old ways.
Post by Byrntrigan on Feb 28, 2009 12:32:47 GMT -5
From what I've been reading Dollhouse and Sarah Conner Chronicles will be cancelled shortly. They were pulling underwhelming numbers when Fox was expecting low, and Sarah Conner has gotten worse since moving.
Current projection is for both to be killed in a week or 2.
I really wanted to like Dollhouse, but it would appear the studio has interfered too much (the pilot was done I believe 3 times).
We'll see, Whedon would have a shaky episode or three in his other shows and then come back with a gem, so I'm still holding out hope.
It would amuse me if next year Byrne did a women's fed or Texas fed. I'd just like to see how he tries to make it a dark, demonic, ECW homage led by James Mitchell or Raven. -- Lucky, 2009
see. i told you byrne was the way to go here. like i said, he's a big dork. -- Ziggy, 2009
I dont know where you're getting your info from Byrne, but Dollhouse is pulling really respectable numbers for a Friday show on Fox. Especially when you add in the all of the other viewing methods (online, iTunes, Amazon, etc.). I've heard that SCC may be in trouble, but Dollhouse is doing fine and pulling the 2nd best numbers for their time period on Fridays and even better demos.
The pilot was bad. I said that to Lucky. I thought the 2nd episode was much better. Last night's episode was okay. It's not a great show, but I also think it's just finding it's legs. I also don't find the casting of Acker or SPOILER to be stunt-casting. It's been proven time and time again that people who run shows/movies like using the same group of actors. Kevin Smith, Judd Apatow, and Ben Stiller all do it, but when Whedon does it, it becomes stunt casting.
And I don't care if you like or don't like the show, but Lucky's post was trying to get a response and he got it.
Re the pilot: It was all the studio. Whedon had wanted to do a true introduction of what The Dollhouse was. Give a nice background and slowly bring everyone into the methos of the show. Fox wanted him to jump right in. Whedon said fine and was going to make the 2nd episode the original pilot. Fox just wanted to get into the show and not worry about the background of the place or characters. Whedon has been through this with Fox before (Firefly) and he just completely rewrote the first few eps. And I think he's taking his time getting to his show. Everything I've read about episodes that were sent out to critics were that the 2nd and 4th episodes were more classically Whedonesque shows. The pilot was all Fox. The 3rd episode just was.
And it is creepy. Eliza as Echo is creepy. I love it. She can handle it just fine. It's just that we're used to Eliza beling balls-out, guns to the wall and full of passion. I think that she's done a great job balancing the two.
Also, do you hate the show's creepiness for being creepy in itself, or because you think it's unintentional? Because I think it's kind of the point, it being creepy. I don't think Whedon was expecting anybody to think otherwise when they started watching it. Within the Dollhouse, he's only got one character questioning this, and outside again, he's got just the one. He's not beating us over the head with it, he's just letting it come across naturally.
No, its clearly intentional and I'm sure will be part of the inevitable turn of Echo and the bodyguard. Its just kind of creepy and uncomfortable to watch.
And did you not think it was stunt casting when Firefly got cancelled, and he put Nathan Fillion, Gina Torres and Adam Baldwin in Buffy and Angel? Besides, Whedon often reuses the same actors, even for smaller guest roles (like the undercover Alliance cop in Firefly's pilot was also in Angel and Buffy as different demons. Andrew's actor was one of Harmony's vampire minions, and Summer Glau was a ballet dancer in Angel once.)
See, I think there's a fine line between stunt casting and using who you work with and know will do a good job. Maybe there's more to Acker's role than what we've seen but at the moment it FEELS like she's there in 1 scene an episode just to get us to react. She seems like she'll get something happening later but at the moment it feels like a role that could be played by most anyone but casting a loved actress from his prior work gets a reaction.
In the Fillion/Torres/Baldwin cases I'm inclined to think he just wanted actors who could work for extended roles. I think that's probably most obvious with Fillion's role since I think that was one where he fit very well in it and a lot of actors could have done a bad job with. Baldwin's or Torre's might be a little more replaceable but I don't know. Again, its a fine line. My view of it is almost certainly clouded by the context. Casting Firefly characters on Angel or Buffy doesn't really seem to make much sense as stunt casting because Buffy/Angel had larger audiences and one assumes much of it was the same Whedon audience that watched Firefly. On the other hand, tossing Acker into Dollhouse MIGHT serve to get positive reactions from Whedon fans to a first few episodes that don't see that strong.
But if she ends up having a larger role in episodes to come then maybe he just genuinely thought she was the right actress for the job. I'll gladly change my tune if that happens.
Yeah, I haven't watched last night's episode yet, but the first two really left me wanting more of the camaraderie of previous Whedon shows. I just don't feel like these people are part of any sort of real team. Whedon's dialogue is usually a LOT more entertaining.
That's certainly a clear gap between this and his other works. We're used to him writing team shows with snappy banter and friendships, and it doesn't look like we'll get that here any time soon. And that's fine, really. Like Stu I respect Whedon not going to the well once again and trying something different. But his hardcore fans are certainly going to go in with certain expectations and personally this just doesn't feel like a winning concept.
I'll watch last night's episode but unless it shows me something I might bail out. I like Whedon well enough but I'm not a hardcore fan. I don't like Buffy and I really only saw really great writing in him towards the end of Angel and Firefly. So I don't have the faith that this will turn around because its Whedon or that the problems must be the studio. And I simply have to disagree with Dev because Dushku feels WAY over her head with this role. I mean, she effectively plays "wooden emotionless lobotomized vegetable" and she's fine in the basic Faith/Wrong Turn role she's been cast in twice already (with the bike riding rapist and the hunting rapist) and I guess she'll be fine when they routinely cast her as an ass kicker. But I really didn't see anything else in the hostage negotiator role and I barely even recognized that she was playing a traumatized rape victim confronting her rapist if they hadn't hammered us over the head with it.
Which is what it feels like right now. A hard concept to sell with perhaps an undertalented actress and storytelling that is really hammering us over the head with it. I mean, in the first 2 episodes t how many times did we get the bodyguard and the creepy scientist debating the morality of this? I get it. These women are victims. Let the story tell itself a little.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
i'd just like to point out that i don't think lucky came off as a horrible fucking asshole in that first post. he came off as someone who doesn't like dollhouse. granted directing it right at sop knowing he'd take criticism of the show personally (just to be clear, does sop automatically love the show because it's whedon or because it stars a hot chick? i'm really not sure on this one) is a little assholey, but certainly far from the "horrible fucking" catagory of asshole.
the true tragedy of all this, though it comes as no surprise, is that sarah conner isn't gonna make it. it really is a great show and it's a shame that it can't find it's audience. it's not like i had high hopes for it's longevity once news came it was moving to friday, but it woulda been nice to have it last.
Post by Byrntrigan on Feb 28, 2009 17:56:36 GMT -5
Fox keeps trying to catch lighting in a bottle twice with the Friday miracle known as The X Files, but have never been able to do so, even with ample spin-offs from X Files (The Lone Gunmen, Millenium), so this to me just reeks of Fox taking a show that they had a question on (Sarah Conner & Dollhouse) and basically praying friday would bless the shows, and then killing them when they realize that Friday is a death slot for a show (unless aimed at old people (see Touched By an Angel - better yet, don't))
It's unfortunate that these shows will probably die due to Fox and their idiocy, but Whedon can hopefully pull it around. I mean Angel moved to a new network, so anything is technically possible.
It would amuse me if next year Byrne did a women's fed or Texas fed. I'd just like to see how he tries to make it a dark, demonic, ECW homage led by James Mitchell or Raven. -- Lucky, 2009
see. i told you byrne was the way to go here. like i said, he's a big dork. -- Ziggy, 2009
(just to be clear, does sop automatically love the show because it's whedon or because it stars a hot chick? i'm really not sure on this one)
Because of all of the rape. Actually, I'm not sure I agree with it being classified as that. I'm not denying what they're doing is wrong, but if the Dolls have real people's personalities, then aren't they just naturally responding to the client's looks and personality (I don't think they've specifically said that they program them to like the client, maybe, that's just an assumption), due to the personality being determined as a best match? Not to mention that they showed that Echo used to be a normal person before this, agreed to take part in it to avoid other consequences, so she could very well have known what would be involved. (I'm pretty worried how I'll look saying that, but I just feel it's a bit more complicated than that)
That just strikes me as the crazy rationalization of the amoral nerd dude.
Yes, she's imprinted with a personality that will be attracted to the man and WANT to sleep with him. So perhaps the fake person Echo becomes is not getting raped. Of course, that person isn't Echo. Its a made up personality she get dressed up in. So while "Bike Riding Girl" may not be raped, Echo would seem to be.
Not to mention that the nerd has routinely mentioned that they create emotions. A desire to protect the singer, the desire to fall for the guy. The clear story (I think) is that they're not JUST creating the personality that will naturally fall in love or want to save the singer. They're planting the seed to get them there. Because really, what good would having the perfect personality be if the girl didn't want to put out on the 1st date? So as long as the nerd creates the prompt that leads to her falling in love, or giving in to desire, or whatever... Echo, "Bike Riding Girl", "Mountain Climbing Girl", or "Backup Singer" doesn't actually have a say in this matter. She's going to fulfill the programming or "prompt" that the Dollhouse sent her there to do.
I mean, we can rationalize that Echo could say "no"... she just doesn't want to. But then again its the Dollhouse that programs her to not want to.
The only out is if Echo and the rest all went in to that meeting, were told 100% clearly and honestly what would happen with them, and were fully informed when they agreed to be mindless whores and mercs. But even that is a pretty moral grey area since she'll never have the ability to reevaluate her decision and ask out. And one assumes that the Dollhouse aren't a 100% honest agency with good relationships with their "actives" and a fine pension plan. Because if so then they wouldn't really be the evil amoral organization that seems to be the only plot element yet revealed to us 3 episodes in.
3 episodes in I've determined that's the biggest problem with this show. This only works if you care about Echo. But I have absolutely no reason to care about Echo. She literally has no personality. This is a show that feels like they're begging us to watch X episodes no questions asked and just go on good faith that it will become interesting once the actual story starts. I'm all for slow playing a story and building a foundation but this one has nothing to give a damn about thus far.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
That's what I'm saying. It's...muddy. And even if Echo did known about what she'd be doing, you could still argue that it was under duress, or it could turn out the Dollhouse set her up in the circumstances that would make her more likely to accept the deal. Which would be terribly predictable and cliche as far as I'm concerned. It'd be more interesting for me if Echo got herself into the mess with her own actions as an adult, as it would make her less of a victim. Of course, if it could really be classified as rape accurately, I'd at least be glad of that meaning Joss Whedon would have to be depict MEN as Victims too for a change! The reason I'm not clear on if they're programmed to like the client or if they're just given a personality that matches theirs is because in the first episode, they had that scene establishing they had to take all the flaws along with all the strengths of the person (such as the asthma), so it seems inconsistent to me that they HAD to keep her "in character" that way, but could program her to act "out of character" in other ways. When she's just "Echo" I can get her being programmed to trust her handler deeply, because she's a blank slate, so I can imagine is more susceptible. But even that had to be done with the Handler being present for the process. It's kinda because the process hasn't been explained to well. How do they get other people's personalities to put into her? Do these people volunteer to get their brains scanned, is it done more covertly? Or do they just have profiles made on them, because that wouldn't account for Echo's negotiator personality knowing the FACE of the man who kidnapped her as a child. Something else that's been pointed out to me is the FBI guy's subplot is kinda tricky. He can't actually find and shut down the Dollhouse because that would end the show. If the Dollhouse killed him, then the plot goes nowhere. If he finds them, but somehow leaves them be or even joins them that goes against his character a lot, doesn't it? The only thing I can think of is he finds out the Government has some sort of arrangement with the Dollhouse, like their process could create effective agents for them instantly and they're allowed to operate in return. About Echo not having a personality. Isn't the running plotline supposed to be that Echo gradually starts to regain her old identity as the show goes along?
Right, but that's the point. She's yet to develop or regain a personality so what reason do we have to care? These episodes basically feel like they're 1 of 2 things.
1) A formulaic "mission of the week" show where the writer gets to write whatever character traits, skills, and flaws they want into the lead to fit whatever convoluted story they want to tell. The sort of show you'd expect to see on Fox Friday Night 10 years ago.
2) A drawn out adventure to get to the real story that is Echo vs the Dollhouse. So we're essentially in the 1st Act of the story and its kind of boring. I get that Whedon wants to lay the foundation and show us how her memories return or her programming fucks up or whatever. But in the meantime we have a lead who is literally without a personality and no real conflict in the program.
This show's plot seems to be getting pushed by the cop and the handler/scientist conversations in which they just sort of sit there and run off exposition while Echo's off on her "adventure of the week." Then they throw some minor plot advancement at us like Echo having memories she's not supposed to or Echo and Sierra seemingly recognizing each other more than they actually should.
Its a slow storytelling that would work a lot better if the supporting cast was a little more likable or relate able. But at the moment whatever you think of Dushku's ability her character is written as a vegetable. So there's no great mystery or plot driving the story at the moment. And the lead has done nothing to make her a real lead. So that kind of just leaves the supporting cast. And personally not one of them has me remotely interested in them and a couple of them (the cop, the scientist) are kind of painful (IMO).
I think I get what Whedon is trying to do with slow storytelling, but I don't think he's feeding us anything to satisfy us. And from reading all the "Fox didn't like the pilot, he rewrote it" stuff it looks like he knows this because his original pilot (supposedly) established the plot and Echo character much more than 3 episodes have. So maybe its Fox's fault, maybe its Whedon's... either way this show feels like its waiting to start and most of the defenses I've seen on the web have amounted to "It kinda sucks but wait six/nine/thirteen episodes and then it will pick up."
Which is kind of an acceptable message if we KNOW its going to turn around or if we're reading a novel. But its a lot to ask of a weekly TV show with no established cred.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Here's my problem with the overall concept of Dollhouse: it's not a TV show. It's not a fully sustainable weekly episodic-type show. Unless the audience can somehow continue to swallow, week in and week out, that Echo is malfunctioning on missions, and that they KEEP SENDING HER ON MISSIONS, eventually the story will break down and become illogical. But on the other side of the coin, eventually Echo will have to wake up, realize who she is, and openly rebel against this giant evil corporation. But no matter how things go down between Echo and the Dollhouse... that effectively ends the story. There's nothing really more to say. I guess it could potentially continue, where she's somehow able to access all these personalities that they've shoved into her brain, and continue on, but how does that not just become Buffy 2.0?
And the same goes for the agent-guy's search for the Dollhouse. Either he finds it, or he doesn't. You can't just drag that horse on forever.
I love Joss, but I just don't think this story is sustainable.
Agreed. I think someone said this already but maybe it was said on another board. The only real way this story can keep going beyond a certain point is if the Dollhouse is so protected by people up high in the government that Echo and the cop end up as the underdogs. Which is often Whedon's MO (Angel vs Wolfram & Hart; Serenity vs The Alliance) so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the way the story turns. He likes the underdog hero so I wouldn't be remotely surprised if a few more episodes from now we've got Echo, cop, and bodyguard snapping witty banter at each other while they work to take down the powerful Dollhouse after they realized how connected it is.
Of course a common theme thus far has been the Dollhouse's desire to stay out of trouble and the news so I'm equally prepared for it to not go that way. But like you said, I fail to see how the story works much of any other way. If its just Echo going on mission after mission while slowly piecing together her personality that just feels boring and redundant. It reminds me of Burn Notice where they do a new mission each week while just barely advancing the main plot. But for me Burn Notice gets away with that because of a great cast of characters and some exciting action. Dollhouse doesn't seem to have either of those things thus far.
EDIT: Of course I guess the other way this could go is that we get swerved and the nerd scientist is right and the question Stu raised gets answered. The actives DO volunteer for this knowingly and ARE willing participants. In which case while the Dollhouse may be illegal its not terribly immoral. And Echo remembering could just lead to a more cooperative approach for the Dollhouse with Alpha being the true villain. But then the show just sort of becomes La Femme Nikita or Alias or whatever. A cliche.
EDIT2: Of course I say "cliche" like I'm not watching a show whose best episode that is supposed to redeem it is the 100th version of the Most Dangerous Game I've seen with scenes that could have been taken out of Wrong Turn to save some cash.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
That comic sums up the problem I have with the criticism of the show. If this was Whedon's first show, then judged solely on it's own merits, it wouldn't be such a big deal that it wasn't too good. But because he has a rabid fanbase who love much of his other stuff, the backlash is several times worse.
By that same token, though, because it's Joss "My Master Now" Whedon, people are more willing to let it go on being lackluster for longer hoping it improves. Duckshoot said give it until episode six and people seem willing to do that despite the first 3(?) being rather ho-hum and that being a place where most people would have started to check out.
A lot of blogs seem to be referencing some deal with Fox that they'll show the entire 13-episode run, guaranteed, without cancelling it, but I can't find an actual news reference to this anywhere. Is there any truth to this? I'd like to see the show's narrative get a fair shake to take its full shape.
I'm with bd2. If this was just some random new show without a cult favorite behind it we'd just chalk it up as a piece of shit and be done with it. We wouldn't be sitting around saying "Well, I have faith that it will turn around because its Whedon" or "Whedon says to give it 6/7 episodes so lets." No Buffy/Angel/Firefly means no expectations for the show, fine. But it also means that Whedon would have no reserved good will and we'd all be reacting very logically.
"Wait 7 episodes? Why would I watch 6 episodes of a crappy show because the creator CLAIMS that it gets better 7 episodes in? Why in the hell isn't it just good at episode 1? How arrogant do you have to be to make that demand of the audience? Screw Dollhouse."
But its Whedon so we're willing to buy into what he's saying and we're willing to give him all sorts of excuses like Fox destroying his show or some missteps with a new sort of story.
The best theory I've seen is that Dollhouse is a show Whedon created not to be canceled by Fox. Intentionally done to be over sexed, filled with cliches, and really bad because that's what Fox likes. But then 7 episodes in he'll sneak in real storytelling and character. Because he's an evil genius. And NO ONE would think anything crazy like that if this was just some random show from some random writer.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
This all would seem to jibe with the idea that Fox is giving them the full 13-ep run to make a real go of it. Very uncharacteristic of Fox execs, but REALLY smart on Joss' part, considering his previous run-ins with Fox.
So, this doesn't spoil anything, but I was reading an interview with Eliza Dushku, and she had this to say about episodes 6+:
"...we’ve now done 13 episodes, and people have said that the show took off once they finally realized that Joss is best off left alone to do his thing. That happens around episode six—six through 13 are just extraordinary. I love one, two, three, four, and five, but Joss’ first script that he did after the pilot is number six, which is called “Man On The Street,” and it is just unbelievable. From that point on, the world unfolds in Joss’ way, with Joss’ speed, and it’s really remarkable."
Granted, she's ON the show, so it might just be hype, but Dushku's never really seemed like a hype machine to me, and she's genuinely a fan of what Joss does (from previous interviews I've read), so this gives me a bit of hope.