Bah. Of course she's hyping the show, she's on it. Its her future. Saying that Ep 6-13 are "extraordinary" and "unbelievable" and "remarkable" has as much credibility as saying that Ep 1-3 are ones she loves. Of course she loves Joss Whedon's work. She owes her entire career to it.
Whedon has set up the same Ep 6-7 marker point so I'm willing to buy that there's something to it. My guess is that the main story will kick in right about then and we'll stop getting these lame "mission of the week" stories. We'll get the main story arc like Whedon is known for, because that's when the cop will find the Dollhouse and Echo will regain her memories/personality.
And my guess is that Whedon and Dushku know as much as we do that the these early episodes blow and are just begging for patience. But part of me is annoyed that I'm expected to wait 6 episodes for a show that MIGHT be good, even by the star and creator's standards. As we said before, THAT's the advantage Whedon's name brings to this show. If this was some random Fox show there's no WAY we'd buy that magically gets good at Episode 6 or 7. Its only on the strength of Buffy, Angel, and Firefly that Whedon can sell that story to us.
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Granted, she's ON the show, so it might just be hype, but Dushku's never really seemed like a hype machine to me, and she's genuinely a fan of what Joss does (from previous interviews I've read), so this gives me a bit of hope.
Plus, her Mormon grandmother wouldn't like her lying.
Why the fuck did someone spend millions of dollars for a "doll" to be a midwife? Look, I can accept that a whore who "really" loves you and doesn't know she's a whore might be worth the money (assuming you don't mind raping people). And that maybe its worth getting a safecracker this way than dealing with an actual criminal. And I'll even buy that she's believably a better hostage negotiator than a real hostage negotiator. But a midwife? Is the point of the show supposed to be that rich people are really, really stupid and will spend on anything even if it means becoming embroiled in a ridiculous conspiracy that is morally reprehensible, costs millions, and will land you in jail if it's ever exposed?
Only 1 more episode before it supposedly stops sucking!
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Does that really pass a logic test though? There wasn't a top quality doctor or midwife in the world who would go to this remote locale for a ton of money so they had to pay millions for a "doll"? And the same transport that got the "doll" to the house could have gotten the pregnant woman to the hospital. So these people are SO rich that their need to have a midwife help deliver their baby in their bedroom way up on the mountain in solitude was worth the millions it took to get a doll and all the moral and legal quandaries it means. I was willing to accept the retarded backup singer/bodyguard plot and the stupid hostage negotiator one so maybe your ability to accept these wacky scenarios goes further than mine. But I think the midwife is pushing it.
A more cynical man would theorize that the only reason they were way up on a mountain was so that Echo could see a painting of mountains and register a memory. But that would go into the area that my Firefly, Dr Horrible, and Angel fandom won't let me go. That all these horrible "I want to be free!" and "I want to forget!" and "I'm broken!" lines and all these hackneyed situations aren't just signs of really, really, really hack writing.
And of course Whedon is dealing with a horribly difficult premise. His story is about "dolls" that do everything SO perfectly that they're worth all the money and moral/legal pitfalls that they cost. Yet in order to deliver this story he's showing us mistake after mistake giving off the impression that they're actually quite bad at their jobs. So we get these little 2 minute missions to try and remind us that really... these fuck ups are rare and most of the time everything's perfect and everyone is happy with their "doll." Its just these couple of instances we base episodes around that are totally outside the norm and don't affect our credibility.
Honestly, I feel for Whedon except that I think the flaw is in his basic premise. But I want to give him credit for giving us one of these 2 minute missions that wasn't creepy whoring because until now its felt like "Dolls are hired to fuck or to fuck up complicated jobs." But I can't because they felt the need to (a) tease it with the woman screaming before revealing it wasn't sex and (b) teased the main mission as an honest to God rape fantasy hire before playing it out.
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Also I think I dozed off or something but if others like Stu watched it could you help me out... How the fuck did they get out of the bank? One minute they were screwed and then the next it was "He's broken, I'm not." Somehow I completely missed their escape.
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The broken guy let off a smoke grenade so she would be able to sneak out (he was ot for her or whatever). She helped him get out while the other guy got into a gunfight with the guards & presumably died. Echo's handler met her halfway.
And of course Whedon is dealing with a horribly difficult premise. His story is about "dolls" that do everything SO perfectly that they're worth all the money and moral/legal pitfalls that they cost. Yet in order to deliver this story he's showing us mistake after mistake giving off the impression that they're actually quite bad at their jobs. So we get these little 2 minute missions to try and remind us that really... these fuck ups are rare and most of the time everything's perfect and everyone is happy with their "doll." Its just these couple of instances we base episodes around that are totally outside the norm and don't affect our credibility.
Well it's only Echo who's been acting up it seems(and that's the impression the Dollhouse staff seem to be giving). And in this case it only happened due to Alpha's interference. The other girl's been operating fine, as has the guy they've used to throw off the Fed. But I do think it's a problem that these three are the only Dolls we've really had any focus on, and the other ones who are basically just extras aren't being covered.
Yeah. Sierra has CLEARLY been showing similar signs as Echo. For all we know she could be having the same flashbacks Echo is but since the show isn't about her we don't see it. What we do know is that she too is cognizant in her "tabula rasa" state and "knows" Echo. And now Victor's in that group too.
Incidentally I can't figure out if its witty and cute that he was introduced to us as "Victor" or if I'm a moron for not figuring out that he was a "doll" the second I heard "Alfa, Echo, Sierra." If someone pops up named Charlie or Juliet I'm not falling for it.
Alpha/Alfa HAS been the cause of 2 of Echo's fuckups but only because he's exposed the flaws in the Dollhouse and their own arrogance. He managed to get someone by their screening, clearly exposing a flaw, and he did something they flat out thought was impossible. Nevermind that Alpha only exists because of the Dollhouse and its now been revealed to us that they've lied even to their own employees about him. Which obviously puts folks like the nerd and bodyguard at a disadvantage if they don't even know what threats are out there.
The fuckup in Ep1 had nothing to do with Alpha or even Echo's "misprogramming" or whatever. That was just a flaw in the system. A one in a million flaw? Sure, maybe. But it was the very first doll mission we saw (you know, besides the whoring at the start). The fuckup in Ep3 with the singer also had nothing to do with Alpha. It too was a "programming" problem as they tried to argue that she was just fulfilling her primary programming by going WAY off book and alarming everyone. "She was programmed to protect the client, the client wanted to kill herself, so posing the client with her mortality was the way to save her"? Obviously questionable philosophical ideas and wacky psychological approaches wasn't INTENDED to be part of the programming.
I'm more than willing to buy that 100 doll missions go off without a hitch between the one we see each week. But that's what we see. This is kind of back to the "wait 6 episodes" issue. Dollhouse is brand new. It has NO built up benefit of the doubt or trust. They're just TELLING us that the Dollhouse is great and awesome and asking us to accept this wacky premise on pure faith. Which is fine but the nature of the show is forcing them to show us the exact opposite, which makes it really hard to buy into the notion. They're telling us one thing and showing us another, and its understandable because the missions HAVE to have drama to be compelling TV. But its one of the MANY roadblocks this show has along with horribly immoral or empty character and the wacky notion of a super secret and illegal brothel/merc house/temp agency that costs millions and relies entirely on word of mouth while flying completely under the radar of all authority except one rogue cop.
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Not totally true. There was a remark that three of them, Echo included, seemed to be grouping together. Echo, the amerasian chick, and the guy.
I was saying she wasn't messing up on missions, within the definition of her roles. And when we do see them mess up due to a flaw in the system (like the negotiator recognising her kidnapper, but even that wasn't a fuck up because she was right that they wouldn't have gotten the daughter back) it still turns out alright. So they actually ARE good at their jobs because they can adapt to unforseen eventualities. And of course problems come up in the missions we see. Where's the drama in showing when everything goes according to plan? It's why murder mysteries don't always follow occam's razor. It's why 24 always has a freaking mole in CTU/The White House. It's why you can't have a simple "meet and exchange" mission in Grand Theft Auto games without a double cross, or police/rival gang interference. And The Dollhouse obviously doesn't believe their success is 100% guaranteed, because in last week's, didn't they charge the client extra due to projected higher risk? And the grouping together was explained as an instinctual "flocking" thing. There's no reason to assume she's glitching like Echo has yet.
"Flocking" shouldn't happen according to the nerd. His curiosity and concern was clear evidence that something was up, he's just the sort that passes it off because doing otherwise would be admitting his own flaws or ignorance. Go back to Ep1 when Echo walks in on Sierra being wiped. Door wasn't locked because she wasn't "supposed" to have the necessary curiosity to enter strange rooms. Everyone was shocked and shuffled her out. But how does the super genius overseer of this see curiosity that wasn't supposed to be there, familiarity (or flocking) that isn't supposed to be there, and a number of unpredictable moves on missions without questioning what's up with Echo? He's either a moron or arrogant. Either way the clear signs are there that there's problems. If there wasn't we wouldn't have ANYTHING other than a crappy procedural.
Sierra also recognized Echo after the singer mission and was going to greet her in some way before Echo brushed her off with a head shake because she recognized that people were watching them. Sierra not only recognized her but listened to her, properly interpreted the head motion, and may have recognized the reason.
While all the missions have resulted in successful ends they've ALL had unforeseen crisis's. The clients have all questioned the reliability of Echo and she's clearly spooked the nerd and the boss chick more than once. Not to mention that her bodyguard isn't even trusted by the boss lady to do his job and he openly questions the motivation and truthfullness of his employers. And like I said, I'm well aware that these missions are a fraction of the total dollhouse missions. The problem is that perception equals reality and Whedon is telling us one thing and showing us another. Makes it harder to buy into the notion.
Imagine a show about the world's greatest comic. The whole premise is that he's a comic genius and built around how funny everyone finds him. Yet none of the jokes he tells on the show support this. Some of them are kinda funny but they're all pretty awkward and some are outright unfunny. The basic premise of the show struggles because the content isn't supporting it.
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"Flocking" shouldn't happen according to the nerd. His curiosity and concern was clear evidence that something was up, he's just the sort that passes it off because doing otherwise would be admitting his own flaws or ignorance. Go back to Ep1 when Echo walks in on Sierra being wiped. Door wasn't locked because she wasn't "supposed" to have the necessary curiosity to enter strange rooms. Everyone was shocked and shuffled her out. But how does the super genius overseer of this see curiosity that wasn't supposed to be there, familiarity (or flocking) that isn't supposed to be there, and a number of unpredictable moves on missions without questioning what's up with Echo? He's either a moron or arrogant. Either way the clear signs are there that there's problems. If there wasn't we wouldn't have ANYTHING other than a crappy procedural.
Sierra also recognized Echo after the singer mission and was going to greet her in some way before Echo brushed her off with a head shake because she recognized that people were watching them. Sierra not only recognized her but listened to her, properly interpreted the head motion, and may have recognized the reason.
Huh. I didn't notice those bits. Probably cos I download it and have it playing while I browse, so I'm sometimes just listening to bits rather than watching them.
And like I said, I'm well aware that these missions are a fraction of the total dollhouse missions. The problem is that perception equals reality and Whedon is telling us one thing and showing us another. Makes it harder to buy into the notion.
But you acknowledge above that the little teaser missions at the start of episodes do show ones that go off completely without a hitch, so regardless of what those missions are and the questions you have about them, if you know those go without problems, how can your perception not take that into account? Because they don't devote entire episodes to them, because as you also acknowledge, you need drama?
Its the burden of the show. I know what I'm SUPPOSED to view the Dollhouse as. A highly functioning and successful organization with a great success rate and reputation. But 90% of what I'm seeing is a somewhat inept organization that is experiencing routine problems, has clear questions in management and employees (bodyguard questioning everyone; nerd questioning boss lady; boss lady lying to everyone; boss lady seemingly being yelled at by someone else; mean guy always arguing with everyone; Sierra's bodyguard arguing with Echo's bodyguard), is seemingly ignoring a MAJOR problem with their dolls, and recently had a major fuckup that cost the lives of a bunch of people and unleashed a psychotic super powered ninja who is smarter than the smartest guy they have and are seemingly powerless to find or stop him. Plus whatever the hell is going on with Victor and the cop where Victor seemed to set him up to get killed but it failed. But I'm not even remotely following that story because the cop bores me to tears. Those scenes manage to lack the overdone sexuality that they've laid on super thick to keep our attention.
Its a flaw in the premise. Whedon introduced a fantastic premise but in the process of trying to establish it to us he's being forced to poke holes in it. Its not his or Fox's fault, its the premise's problem (not to say Whedon and Fox aren't behind the premise, but any worthwhile premise has some complications). Like I said, the premise is VERY tricky in many ways. How do you get us attached to characters who, by definition, have no true personality or true presence as their own people? And who the show is keeping it somewhat ambiguous as to how much of victims they are and how much they're volunteers.
Whedon hasn't figured out how to manage this premise in the first 4 episodes. Will he? He's certainly suggested that he doe around Ep6. And he's got enough of a track record that people are willing to give him the chance. But at this stage it almost feels like we'd be better off skipping tomorrow night's episode and just tuning into Ep6.
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I think having the inside man trying to end Echo's career as an active kinda helps with your premise issues, doesn't it Lucky? He acknowledged how much she's been 'glitching' lately, and bitched about it to the big boss lady, who blatantly ignored it, showing that she probably has some personal connection to Echo.
I liked this week's episode, because it had a few cool twists in it. I think them setting up the strange behavior in Victor means something for next week's episode.
And how about that trailer? They're REALLY putting all their eggs in next week's basket.
Post by Byrntrigan on Mar 14, 2009 16:16:40 GMT -5
Which coincidentally is the 6th episode.
I'm still meh on the show, but...
It would amuse me if next year Byrne did a women's fed or Texas fed. I'd just like to see how he tries to make it a dark, demonic, ECW homage led by James Mitchell or Raven. -- Lucky, 2009
see. i told you byrne was the way to go here. like i said, he's a big dork. -- Ziggy, 2009
I think having the inside man trying to end Echo's career as an active kinda helps with your premise issues, doesn't it Lucky? He acknowledged how much she's been 'glitching' lately, and bitched about it to the big boss lady, who blatantly ignored it, showing that she probably has some personal connection to Echo.
He's certainly one of the more logical plot elements but he's really just an extreme. That the boss lady isn't taking his legitimate concerns as a good enough reason to bench Echo and further investigate this? Its a dysfunctional company where I assume this meeting has occurred.
Angry Guy: Echo's unpredictable and unreliable! This is a problem! Boss Lady: But she's popular. Nerd: And... you know, the dolls have been "flocking" lately and displaying curious behavior. Angry Guy: Are they supposed to?! Nerd: No. Angry Guy: And why aren't we worried about it?! Boss Lady: Jobs get done. Angry Guy: Seriously? You don't care that shit is happening that you didn't think possible?! You don't care that someone completely compromised our screening system?! Boss Lady: I'm sure we fixed that. Angry Guy: And you don't care that someone figured out how to deprogram the dolls by phone!? Something you thought couldn't be done and which now compromises every doll who leaves with a cell phone?! Nerd: Well... no one could do that except Alpha. Angry Guy: You mean the super smart ninja programmed to be the best at everything whose programming freaked out and led to him savagely killing dozens?! Nerd: Yeah, that guy. Angry Guy: So you're not worried that he's the prime suspect in this phone wiping thing?! And doesn't that make him a prime suspect on the screening thing?! And you're not worried that he seems to have our number and is fucking with us?! Or that Echo is displaying signs of leaving her programming too?! Nerd: Actually, so are Sierra and Victor. Angry Guy: Seriously?! Boss Lady: I'm sure everything's ok. Someone wants to send a doll into a dangerous murdering cult but only after we make her blind. Lets send Echo. ... Angry Guy: I quit. I don't need to be here when they all freak out and go on a killing spree. Or when whatever Alpha is clearly planning happens. Or when that cop who's looking for us realizes he's closer than he knows because Victor is glitching and already failed to kill him once. You people are a mess.
I watched the first 2 minutes of Dollhouse last night and actually heard half of that conversation and couldn't stick with it. But I'll give it a watch before the infamous 6th episode.
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Not a science guy at all, but wouldn't Victor getting an erection from seeing Seirra naked be basic biology? There's nothing neurological about it. I mean we all got boners as kids before we knew why right? And if that girl was naked in a shower next to me, I'd sure as hell have wood.
Also not a science guy but wouldn't it take a neurological response to trigger a such a biological response? You may not know WHY you're getting a boner but doesn't it take your mind seeing a chick and going "Hey, I like that" for your body to respond? Your penis isn't seeing a chick through your pants and getting wood. Your eyes see her, your brain registers it, and then it sends something downstairs. Regardless they clearly established that he was reacting to Sierra specifically so that strikes me as more than just basic biology. Him not getting a boner over naked Echo seems to suggest that he has a "type" and that doesn't seem like pure instinct.
Its another one of those "nerd says its not supposed to happen so I'll accept that" things anyway. At least they followed up on this one and took it seriously.
Part of me thinks the neighbor girl exists on the show solely because Whedon can't write a story without cute and quirky unrequited love. I mean, part of me is trying to figure out what "Millie" fits into on the NATO alphabet or waiting for Alpha to take her hostage. But part of me thinks Whedon just needed her in the show like he needed a nerd with witty quips.
Show still sucks (or perhaps "forgettable mediocrity" is fairer for this episode) but now Fox is billing Ep6 as the big one. So I'm there next week and between this week's events and the trailer it certainly seems like the story is going to finally advance. So lets see if it turns into a show worth watching.
And hey! Echo glitched on another mission! Thank God it all worked out so boss lady can ignore the clear problem!
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I'm still having too difficult a time believing people are paying the (we've been assured, exorbitant amounts) for some of the jobs the dolls go on. A midwife was pushing it, but are we really to believe that boner guy has been contracted, multiple times, to be--from what I gleamed--no more than a male hooker who didn't know he was a male hooker? Look, I'm a wrestling fan, I know all about suspension of disbelief, but come the hell on.
The hooker aspect seems a lot more plausible to me than the midwife thing or the technical skills in life and death situations. The hooker aspect really strikes me as the most natural spin. REALLY rich people who have money to burn wanting a more fulfilling sexual encounter. I find that easier to buy than that if you need a top surgeon that you'd trust the implanted memories of a "surgeon" over one of the ACTUAL top surgeons in the world.
The safecracker premise from last week might have been the most plausible execution of it that I saw because they kind of explained the rationalization. "Taffy" was the only thief who know the plan and knew the planner. So in theory the job gets done, she gets wiped, none of them know about his involvement if he gets caught and the only thing they CAN point to is a person who doesn't exist and even if she was found would have no idea what they were talking about. Of course the problem there is the Dollhouse does know all about his involvement and then some so he's not nearly as clean as it would seem.
Oh, and of course the fact that THE DOLLS CLEARLY GLITCH in a way that a real safecracker would not have. Like I said, I get that these first 5 episodes are SUPPOSED to be the exception leading to something big but they certainly SEEM to have made a strong case against using the Dollhouse for anything but hooking. And the mere fact that there is "an Attic" and "the Alpha incident" suggests that this isn't really THAT big of an exception from the norm. Glitches do in fact happen often enough for them to coin a cutesy nickname for wherever they send the dolls when they do.
But hookers? That I buy. Its terribly creepy and horrifying since its just a giant rape house but people have a lot weirder sexual perversions in this world than "I want someone who wants me."
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So? What did everyone think of last night's episode? I thought there were definitely flashes of classic Joss Whedon action/comedy last night (SEE? PORN!) I loved the twists. The fact that there are like 20 Dollhouses around the world makes them a little like a Wolfram & Hart-type entity now. I love the doors that this opens up, and I sensed a small hint of The Matrix-type plotlines coming down the road, especially with the sleepers. Like, is this life I'm living actually a life, or am I just one of the Actives or sleepers?
I dunno... I definitely think the show turned a corner last night, and I'm looking forward to upcoming episodes now.
I thought it was better, but I didn't get the BIG feel of the episode until the sleeper became active. That's the twist that makes it a much deeper show. Boss lady clearly has ulterior motives and I'm not sure if anyone besides the nerd knows what mission she sent Echo on this time. I like the theory that it's not a single Dollhouse too and it seems like things may be picking up with the FBI guy being suspended and actually meeting Echo.
Def. an improvement and now I just hope it continues to build because somehow the audience has been growing too, so it's got momentum now.
Post by Byrntrigan on Mar 22, 2009 18:08:02 GMT -5
Yeah, both Dollhouse and Sarah Conner have been actually gaining viewers now, so that's good news for both shows.
It would amuse me if next year Byrne did a women's fed or Texas fed. I'd just like to see how he tries to make it a dark, demonic, ECW homage led by James Mitchell or Raven. -- Lucky, 2009
see. i told you byrne was the way to go here. like i said, he's a big dork. -- Ziggy, 2009
Meh. As Dev said it WAS better but not enough so to live up to the build. Which was really kind of inevitable because the internet had thrown too much behind "Episode 6" and it would have had to have been awesome to live up to that. It was "ok" and that wasn't enough to win me over.
Nothing really came as a surprise. The neighbor as a doll was speculated on from Day 1 when every other Whedon fan figured she was either a doll or was going to die right after they hook up. So Whedon teases one to reveal the other. Rape continues to be the most constant theme of the show making me feel icky. The story finally advanced to people inside knowing, which I think we all assumed was going to happen. But they did it in a way that will allow them to keep doing the "Whore of the Week" episodes with 1 or 2 scenes of plot advancement, I fear.
Why did Boss Lady send the rapist to be killed by Neighbor Girl? I feel like I missed that. Between all the double swerves I got all swerved out and confused. Echo gets sent to fuck with FBI Dude? But sleeper programing kicks in screwing that plan up. Meanwhile the Dollhouse simultaneously sends the Rapist to kill Neighbor Girl as a trap for him to die? To what purpose? To spook the FBI Guy? They shot him and sent Echo after him, failed assassination of his girlfriend seems overkill. To complicate FBI Guy's life? Didn't Echo's mission amount to that? I feel stupid because I must have missed something. I just remember Boss Lady and Angry Guy having that "Well played." "I played a bad hand well." conversation and thinking "Wait... I feel like I got bluffed and never saw the cards."
I'll probably watch still because I got this far and odds are its not like I'm buying into a 8 season show. But I think I'm officially over the interest. I'll watch to keep up with things while I'm doing my laundry or cooking, but I just don't care for the show beyond a mediocre hour of TV. Meh.
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