[The Canadian Content]

Vigilance
Daredevil
Rorschach
Casey Jones
Domino
Iron Fist (Orson Randall)

Fury's Commandos
Nick Fury
The Punisher
Black Widow
Black Canary
Forge

[The Canadian Content]

Vigilance.

[Deadly]

May 4, 2010 9:21:10 GMT -5 The Canadian Content said:

Vigilance.

Yep.

[Deleted]

Oh, fuckin' hell. I love both teams, but I'm voting Vigilance because it is actually a team that makes sense for Casey Jones to be on, and I appreciate the creativity in that regard.

[DevSop]

Fury.

[Habs]

I like both teams, on a purely "get the job done" type of scenario, I would vote Fury. On a read a good story with some conflict in the team, I would go Vigilance. I need convincing!

[The Canadian Content]

May 4, 2010 12:37:57 GMT -5 Habs said:

I need convincing!

Vote for Vigilance.

[Lucky]

Fury's team won't self destruct 5 minutes in.

Seriously, did I miss something significant in Daredevil's recent past? Why is he leading around a team of psychopaths? I thought he was basically a liberal Catholic community advocates lawyer? Why's he working with a bunch of people who probably spend their afternoon watching Glenn Beck and polishing their guns to kill all the fags and hippies?

[Deleted]

The way I see it is that DD is the one holding the team together.

[Stu]

May 4, 2010 13:12:48 GMT -5 Lucky said:

Fury's team won't self destruct 5 minutes in.

Seriously, did I miss something significant in Daredevil's recent past? Why is he leading around a team of psychopaths? I thought he was basically a liberal Catholic community advocates lawyer? Why's he working with a bunch of people who probably spend their afternoon watching Glenn Beck and polishing their guns to kill all the fags and hippies?

Didn't he not that long ago(in comic time) declare himself The New Kingpin for a while?

[Lucky]

I just feel like you can't hold Rorschach together. He's a lunatic, plain and simple. A psychopath with Glenn Beck politics. Which seems to fly so much in opposite to what I know of Matt Murdock than I can't see DD being the guy who suddenly gets through to him. My knowledge of Casey Jones and Domino is pretty limited but I always thought both were psychopaths as well. It just feels like Daredevil being very uncharacteristically cast on a psychopath team to me.

Like Domino was actually on my short list for Fury's team but I think the connecting force there for all of them is that they're soldiers. So they're all quite used to taking orders and there's basically no soldier more respected to get them from than Fury. It doesn't feel like there's the same respect for chain of command in DD's team. Domino's going to shoot someone, Rorschach is going to beat up a trannie prostitute, and Daredevil will be trying to clean up the pieces while he's called mean names.

[The Canadian Content]

May 4, 2010 13:12:48 GMT -5 Lucky said:

Why is he leading around a team of psychopaths?

Aside from Rorschach (who was right), who's a psychopath?

Why's he working with a bunch of people who probably spend their afternoon watching Glenn Beck and polishing their guns to kill all the fags and hippies?

For the same reason that most of the members of your team probably have a long history of brutally murdering puppies then having sex with the corpses?

[Lucky]

I categorize Domino and Casey Jones as psychopaths, although I freely admit a good deal of ignorance on comics Casey. I feel confident labeling Domino as one, though.

And like I said, I think the reason my team can work together is because of a healthy respect for the chain of command. Otherwise they'd be a mess.

[Stu]

I can cite a couple of things about Daredevil belonging with the group. He and Rorschach both rejected a law passing that banned their crimefighting, continuing to do it anyway. Orson Randall was mentor and predecessor to Danny Rand, who filled in as Daredevil for a while and is buds with him.
I mean, I think it comes down to the right storyline for them. Matt himself first started out by going after the men who killed his dad, and from what Frank Miller's "Man Without Fear" origin story seemed to depict, he did bring about their deaths. So he's got a past like them. Maybe if he was meant to be trying to get them to be less extreme, it'd explain it.

[Lucky]

Oh, I see no real problem with DD and Iron Fist. And Casey could probably work easily enough. I might even buy Domino in the right case. Its definitely Rorschach that throws me. Sure, they can bond over some similar opinions but they're pretty fundamentally opposed to each other. Rorschach is one of those characters I think only fits on certain teams and with certain people, like Punisher. DD doesn't feel like one of them to me.

DD's always had that dark image with the revenge motivation... but he's a Batman character, IMO. He has a clearly defined line and the image is largely mental. He's always struck me as a naturally liberal hero and as I recall the only reason he DID declare himself Kingpin was to try and control the streets a bit which were being ravaged by the chaos of no Kingpin. But I've honestly never read half as much Daredevil as I'd like so I could definitely be wrong.

[The Canadian Content]

I don't read DD or Punisher regularly, but I've got a few other comics (Deadpool springs to mind recently, the others are much older), where the two team up. They may not like each other's tactics, but they trust each other to get the job done.

I don't see how Rorschach and Punisher are different, except for the fact that Rorschach is less weapons-based and more of a hand-to-hand fighter.

In the case of this team, DD is the leader because he's the moral compass (at least trying to do the right thing all the time) and because he can keep the others in line through logic or simply through being Daredevil. He's intimidating.

Orson Randall is somewhat troubled, but his biggest flaw is that he spent a lot of time running away from his destiny as a fighter instead of embracing it. That's changed, and he now kicks a lot of ass.

Sure, Domino uses weapons, but she's also the X-Man who was asked to get Deadpool away from the X-Men because he was too violent and crazy. Clearly, she's not too violent and crazy.

Casey Jones is a pure vigilante. He works in the shadows to take down criminals using whatever weapons are handy. The hockey mask doesn't equal insanity, it's for protection and intimidation.

And Rorschach. As much as he's a paranoid schizophrenic, he's also a great detective and fighter. Does he go too far sometimes? Sure. But Daredevil can keep him under control most of the time, and that's all he needs.

[Lucky]

Punisher's not insane. I mean, he is, obviously. But like his insanity is focused. Punisher hates criminals and believes execution is the proper response. Its fucked up and psychotic... but it sorta makes sense. Its not THAT far off from what a lot of conservative people believe. But in the end he's a soldier. He can control himself and he has, time and time again, shelved his lethal force to ally with a Daredevil or Captain America or someone he respected enough to do it for. Because he doesn't HAVE to kill. He's not some serial killer driven by a need or psychotic compulsions. He's Batman if Batman had never drawn the line about guns. Instead of a child scarred by watching his parents killed with a gun he's a soldier driven by seeing his family murdered and falling back on what he knows and believes to be effective. He's a mass murderer, obviously. But its neither indiscriminate nor driven by anything other than a fairly reasonable sense of justice. Cap and DD don't disagree with Pun about who is the bad guy. They just disagree with how to handle the problem.

Rorschach's just a nutbag. He's not out to kill criminals because he believes that's the most affective way to control crime. He just thinks the world is going to hell and its the fault of the liberals and the faggots and the panty waist lawyers like Matt Murdock. He's not some scarred vigilante seeking revenge. He's a lunatic damaged from a childhood of abuse who needs to be locked in a padded room for his and everyone else's safety. I actually think that's my big problem with Watchmen. I feel like the point of Watchmen was for Moore to say "Look at these fucked up 'heroes' and what non-heroes they truly are" but these days it seems like people just take Comedian and Rorschach as anti-heroes. They're not. They're just dangerous and disturbed murderers who belong in a concrete hole. Rorschach might have moments of lucidity but when it comes right down to it he's a raving mad schizophrenic and the guy you've set to control him is someone I think he'd judge as part of the problem.

I admitedly have no idea what Domino's stuff with Deadpool or the X-Men is. I'm basing my opinion of her from the '90s X-Force days when she was Cable's right hand. A hardened soldier happy to put a bullet in someone's head and willing to do some really morally fucked up shit for a greater cause. And like I said, I'll concede the point on Casey Jones. I always saw him as a psychopath myself, but not so much that he couldn't work with DD.

EDIT: And I really wouldn't buy Punisher with Daredevil either. Because the thing is that EVERY Punisher team up I've ever read always ends in one of two ways.

1) A gunshot is heard and the hero finds the bad guy dead and Punisher gone. The hero feels guilty that he couldn't stop this.
2) Punisher slinks off in the darkness and an inner monologue talks about his respect for the hero kept him from killing this time but how that won't stop him from doing what needs to be done the next time.

Punisher can work with a hero for a hot minute because its necessary and there's a greater evil involved they both want to stop but in the end it always breaks down. Because Punisher is a killer and DD/Cap whoever is not.

[DevSop]

With regards to current Daredevil, he's definitely darker than he's ever been. He's still trying to be a hero but he's also leading The Hand and his next story is supposed to see the actual heroes like Spider-Man, Cage, Wolverine and others think he's gone too far and it's supposed to be a war for New York's soul.

Sounds really good; called Shadowland.

But even with all that, Fury's team is really damn good. I don't like Forge but the top 4 for the moment are more than enough for me. I actually think Canary is the interesting member of the team. I would just love to see how she interacts with this type of team.

[Lucky]

Yeah, I really couldn't come up with that 5th member. In retrospect I probably should have used Mystique like I was thinking since the Douche Patrol seemed to be a flop. But I was never very happy with my 5th person. Robin would have been awesome but that would have made the Outsiders crummy, and I was just never able to come up with a solid replacement.

I blame it on having no 1st Rd Pick.