[Sparty]

OK, so I am going to Bound For Glory next month and have little to know working knowledge of TNA. I've decided that I am going to try to force myself to watch Impact until the show to see what's going on.

So, can someone help a brother out here? What should I expect? What the heck is going on? Should I give a damn about Sting?

[Attitude Adjuster]

I'm not the greatest expert on TNa, but probably better than your average fan. Here's what's going on:

1) No, you don't need to care about Sting. I don't know what they're doing with him, and what they are doing doesn't make much sense. Joe/Jarrett is obviously the bigger deal, so Bound For Glory might be where Jarrett finally vanquishes Sting only to have Joe be a bigger thorn in his side.

2) Tag team wrestling kicks 14 types of ass. Styles/Daniels and LAX are tearing down the house with NWA 80s type tag team wrestling. TNA also has some decent depth, also, witness the 7-way tag match at the last PPV. (I'm writing this without seeing the PPV results, so take it for what it's worth.)

3) The midget division is entertaining if that's what you're into. Senshi is pretty cool, but I have a bad feeling they want Chris Sabin to be the heatbeat of the X division. But if you like flippy-floppy wrestlers, this is the place.

4) Christian carries the promos. And I think he's helping others along the way. The feud between Christian and Rhino is pretty cool.

5) Finally, if you like the mindless violence, Raven, Spike Dudley (called "Runt" here) and Abyss are beating each other over the head with anything that isn't nailed down. To me it seems gratuitous, but to each their own.

[ALL CAPS]

Don't worry gimmick. Cory and I will be at BFG as well. We can hold your hand if you like.

10 basic things you'll need to know:

1) Kurt Angle is in TNA now. Be excited.
2) Austin Aries (Starr) will be debuting at BFG. Be intigued.
3) Vince Russo is now booking for TNA again. Be causiously terrified.
4) The X-Division has good action but suffers from questionable booking currently. Be warned.
5) Joe is gonna kill you. Be afraid.
6) Gail Kim is smokin' hot. Be aroused.
7) Bobby Roode is the future of TNA. Be convinced. Please?
TNA has the best tag-division since Duds/E&C/Hardys in WWE. Be entertained.
9) You won't be able to hear Don West or Tenay suck the "cool" out of the room with their square old-man talk. Be thankful.
10) Sting joined TNA to remove Jarrett from TNA but instead of challenging Jarrett to a career vs career match at the biggest PPV of the year, Sting opts for the title shot instead, thereby nullifying his claims to want to cut the Jarrett-cancer out of the promotion and supporting the claims that a now-heel Christian was making all along that Sting was just looking to win gold and doesn't really care about getting rid of Jarrett at all, not to mention FURTHER proving that Sting is a big fucking idiot. Be confused.

[devmax]

Just to add one to Angst's list

- Double towels are a great prop if you want to get on TV. Bring Neon Pink ones.

[Deleted]

Been wondering where Norman Smiley & his Big Wiggle have been? Yup, that's right. They're now in TNA. Be ecstatic.

[Sparty]

Man, Gator, I saw some of an Impact a few weeks back and Norman was on, and I was like "HOLY SHIT! DO THE WIGGLE!" and he never fucking did. I was so sad. If only Alex Wright was in TNA...sigh.

Anywho, another question: What in the blue hell is a Monster's Ball match?

[Lucky]

No DQ match with multiple participants and weapons. The silly rub is that the participants are supposedly sequestered and locked away with no food, light, water, or company for 24 hours preceding the match. Then they get released all crazy like.

Yeah, I know. I like to ignore that part of it and just think of it as a big ass brawl.

[devmax]

Or just imagine the old WCW Chamber of Horrors match except without the crappy electrocution bit...God, I hope Russo doesn't decide to go through his old WCW video tapes

[Jack Quinn]

I really can't imagine Joe is going to be in this match by the time the PPV rolls around. He just has no reason to be there. He pretty much took all three guys out tonight, and seemed more concerned with keeping the title from Jarrett. Everything points to Joe being in the ME mix, why put him in a pointless match that doesn't need him, Runt, Raven and Abyss can do just fine on their own (I love the look for Runt too)

[Lucky]

Unfortunatelly the reason could be to put Joe over the remaining main eventers. Scott Steiner, Ron Killings, Rhino, Monty Brown. Raven and Abyss. Even Sabu. That leaves Jarrett, Sting, and Christian as the challenges he has yet to face, But at the same time we still haven't see Joe go one-on-one vs most of those guys so those matches are still fresh for when he's champ. In that regard I'm actually kind of ok with the Monster's Ball match. With Joe holding the title it feels like the final hurdle before taking the title officially from JJ. And obviouslly his first championship match is coming no later than November.

Angle's going to be added to the Sting/Jarrett match as an enforcer so in my mind the match gets too cluttered. Toss in Joe and suddenly it just feels like way too much. Then again its Russo so "too much" isn't necessarily a valid idea. Jarrett takes back the title from Joe, Joe comes out in the main event and is stopped by Angle. Angle and Joe confront each other teasing us with that eventual conflict and JJ uses the opportunity to cheat a victory off of Sting. Jarrett then deals with Joe next all while Christian and/or Rhino are waiting in the wings. If they had actually had Sting care that Christian turned on him it probably would make sense to build towards Christian/Sting and Jarrett/Joe like many of us wanted for BFG. Angle's sort of treading water but that's probably a good thing. Have him interact with Sting, Jarrett, Christian, and Joe and it should keep the fires burning.

[Batman]

We come from a pretty similar point of view on this, Lucky. We were the ones crying hardest about not getting Christian v Sting and Joe v Jarrett at BFG. But now that Angle's in the mix my point of view has changed 180 degrees.

Now I say, let Sting win the belt, then Christian and he can feud over it. Title-less Jarrett can feud with Eric Young, and Joe can build towards Angle. I suppose Joe could work with the hardcore guys for a while, but I have a better idea: Why not Austin Starr?

[Sparty]

So far we have:

Jeff Jarrett (c) vs. Sting w/ Kurt Angle as special enforcer
Styles & Daniels (c) vs. LAX in Six Sides of Steel
Rhino vs. Christian in a street fight
Senshi (c) vs. Sabin
Joe vs. Abyss vs. Runt vs. Raven in a Monster's Ball match

So, I should take it that this card is pretty damn cool, right?

And who the heck is Senshi and should I care about him?

[ryo]

Senshi is Low-Ki to the rest of the wrestling world.

TNA PPV's are usually pretty kickass, and this being their Wrestlemania and their first "road" PPV, expect them to pullout all of the stops and for the show to be nothing short of epic. The ME was sorta flat, until Angle was included though, and Joe is in a meaningless match at the moment. I actually really liked CC's idea to include Joe in the ME, after making him wrestle the MB match earlier in the show and then having him win the title.

[Lucky]

My problem with that is it goes back to the "Joe can kill everyone" idea. And that's bad. Because there have to be viable challengers for him and if he just runs over the roster like he did the X Division you don't get that. Joe goes through a Monsters' Ball, beats 3 men, and then beats a fresh JJ and Sting? Mind you, Jarrett and Sting getting a bit buried ain't the end of the world but if you're going to put Joe in the title match just do it. Don't have him squash half the main event roster on his way there.

BFG card is strangely looking exactly like the No Surrender card but with extra stops. Which is probably bad planning, but whatever. Joe gets added to the brawl, Ultimate X becomes Steel cage, Rhino/Christian gets a street right. Same exact Senshi/Sabin match.

serg, I don't think I want to see Angle disrupt anything because I think its best for him to stay out of the ring for awhile. So TNA should go on with business for a couple of months allowing him to get involved on the peripheral in everything. That way we are more than waiting for Angle/Joe. And if he has a reason to to fight the other folks we can also push Angle/Joe off a bit and let it build (and let him heal up). Rick said Angle shouldn't wrestle till January. I don't know about that long but if you kept his ring work limited to squashing Sharkboy and taking part in a PPV tag match I could definatelly see extending it to the new year before Angle has a featured 1-on-1 match where he goes all out. And it shouldn't be Joe.

Joe just needs the title. Him having it means too much to the wrestling world now. In the idea of so many TNA's fans and critics Joe SHOULD be champ and moving the belt to Sting and moving Joe out of the title race is just a further mistake, right or wrong. Now that Joe's stolen the title it only furthers that. If he gives the belt back and then starts wrestling pointless brawls with Abyss what was accomplished? It hurts Joe. Which is a shame because I might have liked to see Sting take the title from Jarrett, wrestle Christian, and then lose it to Joe. I just wanted to see that started a few months ago.

And on the rest of the "who the hell is that guy?" matters Austin Starr is Austin Aries. And you should care about Senshi/Low Ki because he kicks ass. Literally. His title reign hasn't been inspired but he tends to bring it for the PPVs and the match at No Surrender was strong until the crap started.

[ryo]

Joe wouldn't be killing everyone though - Raven and Runt are by in large non-entity midcard filler. I fancy Abyss to be a lot like Kane, an upper card guy who can main event on lesser PPV's but will never be a top guy or world title holder, and will a lot of the time find himself in midcard feuds. Also in the Monsters Ball match, Raven, Runt and Abby all have issues with each other, and could "neglect" Joe during their match for the most part. Are the competitors still locked away in a room for 24 hurs with no light, food or water??

Moving on to the Title match, the ref could be kayoed with Joe out on the floor as well. Jarrett grabs his guitar and blasts Sting with it. Angle jumps in the ring to confront Jarrett, and Jarrett starts to beg off and yell for the referee to wake up. As JJ is backing away from Angle, Joe crawls back into the ring and stands up behind him and sinks in the choke, locks it in as the ref gets his wits and sees Jarrett tap and rings the bell. Angle goes gets the belt and hands it to Joe, only after a brief staredown. As Joe celebrates - fade to black.

Joe wins monsters ball because the other three kick the crap out of each other. Him standing on the side lines and watching would be his character already(when he moves out of the way of flippy shit). Then in the ME, he'd win, but there would be sufficient interference that both Sting(blasted with Guitar) and Jarrett(Angle interference) would keep their heat.

[Lucky]

But that feels like it neuters Joe, to me. Its one thing for a part of his character to be the confident smart guy who doesn't necessarily take the hits he doesn't have to. Its another for him to win his first world title because the other guys involved were too busy with each other and with tons of screwy stuff and interference. I don't want Joe to win after a guitar shot to one guy and after Angle distracts another. I want Joe to get a straight up, hard fought, clean victory. Owing Angle doesn't help anyone.

Which is where I stand. I don't really see how we can tell this story right at this stage. So if given the option of a less than spectacular title win at the ideal time or a better title win at a lesser time, I go for the latter option. Winning at BFG would have been meaningful as a message. But it would have been a momentary thing. 6 months down the line it really wouldn't have matter. It certainly wouldn't have matter that the win and his reign was booked right.

Now that he's there Joe should beat Abyss, Runt, and Raven. Not outsmart them and get the win by taking advantage of the fallen foes, but go toe to toe and come out on top. Then when he beats Sting or Jarrett for the title he can do the same. That's a strong champ. I didn't love the idea of the Fans Revenge match either because it theoretically put Jarrett at a disadvantage. So that takes something away from Joe's win. Your scenario takes a LOT away from Joe's win IMO.

[ryo]

I fully understand your point, and it was a concern of mine as I was typing up my BIY scenario. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation where you don't want him too strong or too weak but I think BFG(the PPV not the member here) being the TNA's Wrestlemania should have a better spot for Samoa Joe than in a hardcore match. I guess his progression up the card is on a slow boil.

[Lucky]

I agree with that. He SHOULD win at BFG. But he should have been put in a situation for the big win at BFG. But what's done is done. They opted to tie up the near year long feud between Sting and Jarrett at the PPV with the title involved. Joe's been on the backburner of that feud, so for him to be squeezed into that feud on some vague premise would seem like a mistake. And to manipulate him up the card would feel like a mistake. The big mistake has already been made. What I don't want to see is more mistakes be made on top of it to try and fix what can't be.

At some point Joe just can't win the title at BFG while still getting the elevation and significance that should come from it. I think we're well past that point and TNA's made numerous mistakes to get us here (not correctly ending the Steiner feud, throwing Joe in the #1 contenders match that he wasn't about to win, stacking the odds against Jarrett for their encounter, going the Sting/Jarrett route for BFG at all instead of blowing it off before hand).

[Batman]

I agree that there's no way to tell the story we had been looking forward to--Jarrett really getting his comeuppance courtesy of Joe--at BFG. I don't think you can put everything on hold until the time is right, though. That was the logic used to put the kibosh on Booker winning from HHH at WM--they wanted to keep HHH strong for Goldberg to be the one to bring his reign of terror to an end. Then it didn't turn out to be the right time for almost a year, so we got months and months of placeholder world title feuds and dispiriting, cheap HHH wins.

So far, the "If Jarrett OR Sting want this, tell them to come get it" thing has been awesome. I loved the confrontation between Jarrett and Young. It was like a small-time crook telling the mob boss, "You can shoot me where I stand, but if you want someone to fuck with Batman, you can do it your damn self." That's why I said before that Eric Young would be a good post BFG feud for Jarrett. Or a returning Steiner. (edit: I just realized this wasn't clear. I wasn't suggesting Steiner for Young, but for Jarrett. i.e. "You brought me in to help keep the belt on you. Then you lowballed me and said you'd be fine on your own. So, hows that working for ya?")

And for Joe, stealing the belt likely has him pointed towards a Full Metal Mayhem or a King of the Mountain match. And Starr could call him out based on their ROH history. And he's been inserted with the hardcore guys. And he has Angle waiting in the wings. With all of those possibilities on his plate, I'm no longer wedded to the idea that he needs to be the one to take the title from Jarrett.

[Lucky]

I still think he should get the belt soon, like within the next 4 months, but I agree that I don't think its necessary anymore. That ship has sailed and Angle does give TNA a spark that Joe's win was supposed to provide. So does the prime time move and Russo even. I think I'd give the belt to Sting at BFG and let him fight Christian after that. I like your Young/Jarrett feud and am game for that. I don't hate a Young/Joe vs Jarrett/Steiner match either. Something about Young cowering in fear of Joe as his partner amuses me. Joe could be given a right #1 contender match/build to the title then. Using Sting as a transitional champ works for me since it ends the JJ/Sting feud best and I don't
think Joe NEEDS to win the title from Jeff.

Your Booker/HHH comparison is fair. They have to look out for that. I think Sting being transitional champ helps avoid that as long as the end result is a passing of the torch to Joe. And JJ playing outside the title race is always so much more satisfying. Definatelly with you on the Young thoughts.

I like Angle/Joe to be well down the road though. And I'd probably like the title around Joe's waist by then. I guess I could live with it being the #1 contender's match that leads to his win. Actually I guess I could live with Jarrett vs Joe vs Angle. I guess I'm a lot more open then I thought.

[thegenerator]

I still really think the whole 'streak' idea is always a bad idea. Would it really have hurt Joe that much to have AJ or Daniels take one win on him at the end of their feud? I mean sure, have him squash some of the X-Division gnats to assert his dominance, but it doesn't really do much to kill his buzz if he gets pinned once. The possibilities for Joe are slowly caving in because there's far fewer options for them to go with in regards to ending his streak because they've played it up so much that theres a foregone conclusion to all non-PPV matches he's in.

As much as it would have been the completely wrong thing to do, Joe should have been pinned somehow in the Rhino/Monty/Joe three-way following a big spot or something. It was the last chance for them to assert any kind of 'equality' to him in the main-event scene, as hes pretty much beaten all competition since.

You can keep him winning, I don't mind that, but the streak theorem and the quality of opposition he's beaten makes it very hard to book a believable system of feuds where it isn't a giveaway as to the conclusion.

[Lucky]

Actually I thought that the Rhino/Brown match was done right. They were presented as equals and they went toe to toe to him. Joe fought hard and came away with the win by capitalizing on the right moment (Rhino knocking himself out and Brown being set up for the STO through the table). That's the sort of equal battles that Joe comes out on top of that I think need to get done. I don't have a problem with the way his matches have gone since he exited the X Division.

The fact that we're not going to believe that some people can beat Joe is unfortunatelly unavoidable. It is what it is. But the key would be to make it clear that he is an equal to these guys and get them close to winning. If they can make us believe in a 2 count then that's a win. Fortunatelly I think there probably are a couple of viable guys in Angle and Christian. And we'll always fear Jarrett can beat him. But its true that we'll never truly expect Abyss to beat him. But we didn't expect Abyss to beat Christian either.

Hey, I'm with you. I wanted a more decisive end to the X Division 3 way and a more equal telling. madiq sold me on the idea that AJ shouldn't pin Joe. Because somewhere down the line the two will face off for the World Title and Joe can boast that AJ can't beat him. But I was more than willing to see Daniels get a pin on Joe. I think it was a mistake how Joe's entire X Division title reign was booked but it just buried the whole division. The fact that Daniels and AJ left the division with him didn't help either. The 3 capable performers were gone and all that was left was the guys who jobbed to Joe for damn near a year.

[thegenerator]

Well, it's not so much that the entire X Division was jobbed to him as to the entire TNA roster is being effectively jobbed to him. As soon as the 'streak' gimmick exceeded one year and suddenly encapsulated main-eventers outside the X-Division, thats where the problem started. Everyone now knows there needs to be a massive payoff just for Joe to lose in the first place, which really effectively rules him out from losing until he's in a World Title feud or in another similarly main-event feud (with the likes of Angle or Christian).

I know getting Joe over Rhino and Monty was the right thing to do booking-wise- hence why I pointed out how my alternative was the completely wrong thing to do- but it was really their last chance to show Joe as sort-of on par against guys his own size. The Falls Count Anywhere/No DQ stips could have even been used to say 'hey, its still ridiculously difficult to beat him cleanly, but he isn't superman'.

TBH, I'd have preferred Daniels to go over Joe cleanly too, but Styles is Mr. TNA and he had the solo feud with Joe so from TNA's viewpoint he seems more logical. There was a finish used in some house shows where Joe locked in the clutch but AJ flipped over into a bridge for a nearfall; this would be the way I'd book his first loss. Saves his face as he wasnt knocked down for the count and gets rid of the whole streak ridiculousness.

If Christian goes over Joe, it presents the same problems- another streak with a guy (albeit using cheap heel tactics) beating the entire division. Fun fun fun.

[Lucky]

Eh, I don't think Christian's a problem at all. For one, his undefeated streak has only been addressed by him in a cocky manner. Him losing will not only be easier but satisfying. Christian loses and he's unaffected. Joe loses and its a big deal and changes his character. And in the short term, now that you mention it, I'd absolutely keep Christian's streak alive so that when the two of them match up it is there and it does cast some doubt on the match. But Joe's streak is about domination so its different.

And I really do think there's a difference between the way the X Division jobbed to Joe and the way the Heavyweight division has. Jarrett, Steiner, Rhino, Monty, and Killings ALL fought him competitively and scored near wins. The #1 Contender match with Sting, Steiner, and Christian didn't even have him win. So the heavyweight division has clearly shown that they can compete with Joe. The X Division never did. Petey Williams, Chris Sabin, Jay Lethal, Sonjay Dutt, Alex Shelley. They all were completely dominated by Joe. AJ and Daniels were the only ones who were competitive with him and looked like they could beat him. So there was a clear class system dividing those three from everyone else. And when those three left it left the X Division quite neutered. The fact that Senshi didn't even beat Joe for the title hurt it even more. The message sent to us was that the X Division wasn't on the same level as Joe. NOONE could compete, except these two guys who themselves are above the division. But I don't think that same message has been sent at all with the heavyweight division. Not only in the matches but in the fact that Sting, Steiner, Jarrett, Brown, Rhino, and Abyss have all gone toe to toe with Joe and gotten the best of him on many occassions. Even AJ and Daniels didn't do that more than once or twice, and usually by ganging up.

There's two messages sent with the streak. The first is obviouslly that noone has been able to beat him. But the second one is the key, in my mind. The second message is whether or not people have been able to compete with him and made it look like they can beat him. AJ, Daniels, and the entire heavyweight division have been booked to compete and that's key. The X division wasn't. I actually like the idea of undefeated streaks but you have to do it in a way where people are actually competing. Goldberg and Joe's X Division run weren't done right (think Goldberg running over Raven to win the US title).

I agree with you in that I would have put Daniels over Joe. HE actually was the one with the solo feud with Joe. It was Joe's beatdown of him that then brought in AJ to defend Daniels and the silly made up X Division code. Daniels and AJ then clashed within that. So logically Daniels should have been the guy to come out of it. I believe the idea I had in mind was to give AJ the title in Ultimate X at Destination X. AJ never actually beats Joe and you can tell the story that the hatred between Daniels and Joe gave AJ the advantange. Then at Lockdown I would have done Daniels/Joe as the blowoff to the fued with Daniels scoring the win after a brutal beating. Not only would it have been the right end to the story (IMO) but it would have been logical to have Joe be willing to walk away content with the fact that he beat Daniels 4 out of 5 times. That tough Daniels scored that one win wouldn't be something he had to fight. And the Lockdown match would have distracted Joe from the X Division title so that AJ could defend that without being chased by Joe. 1 or 2 months later Joe's moved on and is looking to the heavyweights. It also maintains the "AJ can't beat Joe" story for the down the road.

That's how I wanted it. Of course even once I got past that I wanted AJ and maybe Daniels in the World X Cup to legitimize it, and I even considered Joe in it. But TNA doesn't let me book.

[Lucky]

So since this is kind of just a random TNA thread, and since I can freely double post, I wish to say this.

My number one wish for Russo in TNA is not giving the belt to Joe or taking focus off Jarrett. Its not changing the announcers or even pushing the X Division. Its very simple. Team the Paparazzi up with Christian Cage. Screw Nash. Cage is playing the delusional cocky star just fine and it makes all the sense in the world for him to have those two kiss asses behind him. It gives us a reason to have the Paparazzi back on TV every week potentially bring comedy gold. It instantly elevates the Paparazzi to tag title contenders where they can feud with Styles/Daniels, the Naturals, or Team 3D. It stands to help elevate Cage into a bonafide star. And imagine the awesome 6 way potential of it. Paparazzi feuding with Styles and Daniels. Christian feuding with Sting leading to alliance between him and Styles/Daniels. Or even more amazing, Christian feuding with Joe, Paparazzi feuding with Styles and Daniels. Circumstances force Styles, Daniels, and Joe together to fight their common enemies. Mix and match awesome singles and tag matches and watch the tension between the 3 former X Division rivals. Beyond that you have the Team 3D threesome they could work with. You could throw Ron Killings into a mix.

I want this SO badly.