[Lucky]

I don't think so. Nightwing's been his own guy for 20+ years. Certainly that's long enough to qualify. Its just a rare problem that the the guy most identify as Robin went on to become another hero that lots love as his own. That both ended up as roughly equal players, and both at the forefront of the DC world. I can't think of a single other example. Even IF Arsenal had gotten voted on the list there obviouslly wasn't much demand for Speedy. The best I can come up with is Impulse/Kid Flash and how that might have conflicted with Wally West/Kid Flash/Flash. And Marvel never did sidekicks so I can't think of ANY examples with them (although I'm sure I'm missing one or two). Ms Marvel/Warbird? And I'd bet only FF fans remember the 2nd one.

Robin and Nightwing are separate heroes and have been for 20 years. I kind of would have been annoyed if they had been grouped together. We just have to decide which is which. And really, that's only going to be an issue for a few of us hardcore fans.

Of course I personally would have prefered that I could pick specific guys but I understand the need to make it a more accessible game.

[salmonjunkie]

luckylopez said:

And Marvel never did sidekicks so I can't think of ANY examples with them (although I'm sure I'm missing one or two).

Bucky

[Batman]

Bucky/Nomad. A lot of similarities there that had never occurred to me before. Except that it was the first Bucky who died young, and the second who changed his superhero identity to leave his sidekick past behind him, instead of the other way around like Robin/Nightwing.

[OpTard]

plus, unlike nightwing, nomad sucked.

[The Canadian Content]

In Speedball's defense, he was, in my opinion, very entertaining in the early-90s incarnation of the New Warriors. I voted for him because I always thought he was fun.

[Loki]

operationretard said:

i'm also glad to see that zero of loki's picks made it. that's what you get for trying to be cool and obscure, and i'd also wager dishonest if you truely want us to believe you think some of those guys are better than all the guys who made it.

Aw, piss off and die. You're just jealous because I thought of cool characters and you followed the pack. ;D

In all seriousness, I'll refer you to Texas's Voting criteria:

Basis for voting: You are voting based on who you think is the greatest superhero ever. Your basis for that might be powers, fancy costume, the fact that he/she is a badass, their do good / never do wrong truth and justice mindset, etc. But to be clear, this is not about who would win in a fight between the two. We may do a voting contest on that one down the road, but that is for another day.

THAT was the criteria I used. And I'll be willing to defend any of my picks. I love the main heroes, but the "lesser" titles and more obscure characters are usually the ones that fire my imagination more than the mainline ones.

I assume you were probably stewing in your "Guy Gardner is the one true Green Lantern!!!!!" underoos when you saw that I picked Nova, Night Thrasher and Justice on the Marvel side (Sorry. That was a mean shot. But I had a long weekend, and your post rubbed me the wrong way. Don't take it personal. Reflexive sarcasm). These guys were all New Warriors!" you might say. "A second string Marvel team who sucks and finally died, good riddance!"

Nova has had a long and storied career away from the New Warriors. Keep in mind, I've still haven't read "Annihilation", so I don't know what transpired there. But before Annihilation he saved the universe a few times (I know, who hasn’t?), saved Xandar from destruction and fought the good fight everywhere.

But more than that, Rich Rider (Nova’s secret identity) was created in the Peter Parker loser mold, with one big difference. Peter is super smart. Rich is strictly average, if that. He became Nova because he happened to be in the wrong place at the right time. And he has spent his entire career doing what he believed to be right and doing what he can to make things better because he has abilities that allow him to make a difference on a large scale. Even when his family was threatened (some group kidnapped his family and cut his little brother’s finger off in warning) he continued. He faced down the Sphinx, who with his Ra Stone could pretty much change time and reality as he saw fit, time and time again - Nova regularly got his ass beat by the Sphinx, too – but didn’t give up. He lost his main showdown with the Sphinx, by the way.

He screwed up numerous times. And each time he tried to make amends, or at least learn from his mistakes. And he knows enough to know that he is not as intelligent as other heroes, and compensates for that, usually by getting advice from his brother (who is the smart one of the family).

Night Thrasher? Started out as a generic black Batman. More or less the same origin story. Followed the same path as Batman, with all that this implies. Recruited the New Warriors, which seemed similar to the Outsiders. Where he differed was when his efforts in the boardroom (unlike Bruce, he embraced his role as a businessman and used that to continue his mission) and his efforts in race relations.

Justice (Astro Boy) has a powerful back story that focuses on his strong moral center. He was abused by his father, killed his father in self defense and proceeded to take the punishment that went with that. It was a powerful story told in both New Warriors and the Justice mini-series.

I could give a full break down of Thrasher and Justice (and all the others I submitted), but they didn’t make it, so listing their qualifications would serve no purpose. Unless someone is interested, and then I’ll be able to gush at length about their exploits, what makes them the greatest in my eyes and why they made my list above others.

Do I think some of them are better than the ones who made it? The vast majority, yes. On my personal list, Nova, Night Thrasher and Justice will always rank near the top on the list of heroes. I like them better than Captain America, Hulk, Thor and Punisher. I think they have more redeeming qualities. I like them better. I freely admit that your mileage may vary. That’s why you made your list, and I made mine.

A handful of others (like Manhunter) I have very fond memories of. Which is why I put them on. They may not be better than Superman, but I liked them, which was the whole point of making the lists. Not "Who you thought everyone else would vote for" but "Your personal favorites".

[Batman]

Let's look at this another way. "The greatest superhero" could be interpreted to mean "the superhero who accomplished the greatest things and showed the greatest heroism," or "the superhero who is considered greatest in the real world--i.e. had the biggest impact on popular culture," or "the superhero I personally think is greatest--i.e. like best," or any combination of the three. All of those interpretations are fine.

If you accept that way of looking at it, you can't say that loki didn't really vote for the "greatest superheroes," 'cause he did by one of those interpretations. And you can't say that Retard was "just following the pack." His picks may very well have been his top 8 for each company based purely on personal preference, but even if they were influenced by the characters' popularity or impact, that's perfectly acceptable by one of the other interpretations.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't blast each other for your picks--that's supposeed to be half the fun, right? I'm just saying that nobody "did it wrong."

[OpTard]

you're both wrong, cuz i'm always right. and i'll ban you if you say otherwise.

as far as ways to interpret the "greatest superhero," i think it's a combination of all that segei said. i think using just any one of those doesn't give you the complete picture. take my #1 marvel pick of adam warlock, for example. he's not a main guy, just a personal fave. but on top of that, he's also the guy that when thanos gets his hands on an infinity gauntlet, he's the guy you call. you certainly don't call the new warriors (FYI: i happen to LOVE the original new warriors series. especially early on when it was still drawn by bagley. great shit. so i'm not dissin' the warriors here).

i could've easily filled 4 of my marvel spots with jack, julie, katie and alex power. i know as much as power pack are personal faves, and even having saved the world once or twice, they're far from the greatest heroes in the marvel universe.

[Loki]

To clarify: I was just joking with Optard's "Follow the pack mentality" line. I get why he picked the ones he did. I was just responding to his post about why I picked who I did. i got the impression he thought I was doing it to be a spoilsport, and I wanted to let him know I wasn't, and that there was a logic to my picks.

[The Canadian Content]

operationretard said:

you're both wrong, cuz i'm always right. and i'll ban you if you say otherwise.

He'll do it, too. Don't fuck with the man.

[Deleted]

Loki's not the only one who niminated SuperPro. I did, as well, but he (along with Darkhawk and Slapstick) weren't in my top 8 of the Marvel group.

I didn't know enough about DC to have too many nominations, so I did a mixed Top 16.

[OpTard]

i win. i had a subscription to NFL superpro.

no joke.

[Deleted]

Yeah, you definitely win with that one. Anybody remember how asinine his villains were? There was a place-kicker/ninja villain named "Quick Kick".

[OpTard]

alright, now you win. i may have had a subscription, but i remember NOTHING about the book. you actually paid attention to it.

[Batman]

All right, I never heard of "NFL Superpro," but now that I have, I have to say that it seems to me to just be a pale copy of this:


(Check out that bandana...)

Where Tom DeFalco took Jim Shooter's idea of starting a fresh New Universe with more realistic characters and less cliches, and took a big giant dump on it.

You may have noticed, I'm not a fan of DeFalco's work....

[Deleted]

I present you all with the bio for Quick Kick:

www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/quickk.htm

[Loki]

The Hell? I never mentioned no freakin' NFL Superpro! top with the slander!!!!

[Ryan Who Loves Punk]

That would be me.