[williamssl]

THIS POLL IS CLOSED

I'm posting the first two challenges now instead of tomorrow morning since I actually have to work in the morning.

Our first Round 1 matchup has the webslinger himself Spiderman going up against Batman's #2 (as in sidekick, not bodily function).

• You're voting for who you think is the greatest superhero, or the greater of the two.
  
• You can only vote once.
  
• The poll will close at 9:00 Eastern on Wed, Nov 1, so have your vote in by then for it to count.
  
• Smacktalk, er debate, the merits of each of these two in this thread. Convince your fellow voters why they should vote for your favorite...or ridicule them for their choices.
  

[williamssl]

This is a no-brainer. Spidey. Although someone who chooses to hide behind anonymity has actually cast a vote for Robin...over Spidey. Hmmm....why could that be:

• You're a DC dork and trying to nuke the top Marvel guy
  
• You've got something for superheroes who show a little leg i.e. you're a Randy Orton speedo kind of guy, not a Benoit "cover 'em" type
  
• You're Burt Ward.
  

[Krydor]

I voted Spidey. I mean, come on.

[Lucky]

This is silly. We're not going to discuss this one, right? I love Tim Drake Robin too, but c'mon! Even if I grant him that he's an awesome detective Spidey's a genius scientist!

Although Drake Robin doesn't look any gayer than Spidey. You have to give him that. Still, since this was apparently not concentrating on the version of heroes Robin's got decades of gay to deal with.

[Pun]

I'll take super powers over mortal anyday.

And yes, don't tell me about Batman vs. Superman. Fuck that! Superman would have kicked his ass in real life!

[Courtney]

Ok, I admit that I'm not a comic buff by any means and most of my super-hero knowledge comes from the movies. But this one is really a no-brainer. I mean, Spidey duh. Dude can shoot webs out of his wrists and do amazing acrobatics. What the fuck can Robin do that none of the rest of us can't?

[Batman]

Hey, I don't think he has a chance either, but can we hold off on the voting please? Let's give folks a chance to make their cases. I'm going to write up a "the case for Robin" post when I get a minute. I'm not sure if I'm even going to convince myself, (though I think I would go with Robin against anyone but Spidey and Cap) but still, let's keep an open mind. If we vote before we argue, it kind of defeats the purpose, don't cha think?

My 1-year old just went to sleep, I think I have time to work on that now. You can tenatively expect a big post about the virtues of Robin in 10 or 20 minutes.

Oh, and Robin does not just mean Tim Drake. We established from the start that each one includes everyone to wear the costume. That includes Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Carrie Kelley.

And, Tex, I know you haven't read comics for a while, but it's been more than ten years since he wore short pants.

[OpTard]

this one is both a toughy and a no brainer for me.

i happen to think robin's the shit. especially when referring to tim drake (and while for the most part we're not going into specifics about different versions of characters, considering that dick grayson is already nominated with nightwing, and no one in their right mind would ever nominate jason todd, i think it's fair to say in the case of robin we're talking about tim drake. and since the tim drake version of the character has made it onto both batman the animated series AND the teen titans cartoon, i'd say he's got enough pop culture cred to be named specifically here). he's the closest to being batman (in his skills as both a fighter and a detective) than any of the other robins (while still being robin, so i'm not talking about dick as nightwing).

i think it's a travesty that robin will be going out in the first round. i can pick 5 of the marvel guys nominated that i'd pick robin over. unfortunately (and this is why it's a no-brainer), spidey just isn't in that 5. and not even close to being in that 5. so it is with much regret that pick spidey in this instance.

[Lucky]

Please note that all info here is pre Infinite Crisis and I don't know what changes may or may not have come in that. Same basic time line with Marvel as last thing I saw with Spidey was him getting in touch with his inner spider. If possible I'd love if you guys could warn me before any IC spoilers but I won't blame you for talking about 6 month old story developments.

Jason and Carrie can go hang out with Stephanie What's Her Name in the category of irrelevance. If anything you guys hurt Robin. Actually I'd have to reread DKR to know if Carrie does but Jason and Spoiler? Please.

That leaves us Dick and Tim. And MAYBE Earth 2 Robin if you feel like getting crazy. But who cares about that guy? He died 20 years ago and Infinite Crisis basically confirmed that Dick was the same guy if not better.

Now me? I'm saving much of my Grayson love for Nightwing. His Robin career is what it is. It means being Batman's bitch and saying stupid stuff. And then he gets to lead around the rest of the bitches in a team that only begins to get cool when Dickie Boy starts to outgrow the yellow tights. The GAY yellow tights. So Grayson Robin is at best a push in my mind. He sure as hell ain't cool enough to beat out gay tights and that twad Jason (not to mention Spoiler).

That leaves us Tim. And I'm a MAJOR Tim Drake fan. Tights lost the gay and Tim proved from day one that he wasn't the bitch that Dick started as. He earned the job with his brains. Then he got tossed around to get trained for the physical. He dealt with a crazy Azrael, has the respect of Nightwing/Dick, and has proven the ability to run with any of the seasoned vets Batman works with. Drake Robin kicks ass 8 ways from Sunday. But lets be real. Is Robin the best go to man Batman's got? Is he the best fighter? Is he the best mind? He's a hell of a mix of them but Robin is what he is. Batman Jr. Only with people skills (and the Drake incarnation as the unique quality of not NEEDING to be Batman unlike his boss and predecessor).

Now Tim DOES get to lead the Titans and all, but still. Its inherrently the Junior Varsity Squad. Dick's Titans may have become a legit B team but like I said, most of that goes to Nightwing. And Tim's Young Justice was lower than JV. That was intramural stuff. And really, the current Titans (or Pre-IC Titans) had to play 2nd fiddle to Nightwing and Arsenal's Outsiders so they fell one more degree from the big boys.

Bottom line, what does Robin bring to the table? Fight skills? Spidey has him. Gadgets? Spidey can do that. Deductive and computer skills? Spidey sense and genius. People skills? Who's more likable than Spidey? Robin leads his own B team but that's about all I give him. And Spidey has traditionally been on par with every A Team in Marvel. So fight seems easy to me.

And can I tell you that I like Tim Drake WAAAAAAY more than Spidey. But fair's fair. Spidey's THE Marvel hero and Robin is the sidekick for one of DC's Pantheon and captain of the JV team.

God I need to read IC.

Spidey got to nail the hotter babes too. AND he got to have Cosmic powers. AND he got to be Iron Spidey. AND he turned into a mutant spider, a couple of times. AND he has villain knockoffs. AND a team of lame hero knockoffs. AND his enemies have major get togethers to try and kick his ass. Spidey just wins. Timmy had no chance.

[OpTard]

sergeial said:

Oh, and Robin does not just mean Tim Drake. We established from the start that each one includes everyone to wear the costume. That includes Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, and Carrie Kelley.

while i don't want to discourage any of us dorks in getting all dorky, let's remember that the reason we made the "all incarnations into one" rule was to make the game MORE accessable to the public, not less. so, please, feel free to site dark knight returns if you want, but please, let's not scare away the common folk. the idea is to generalize the characters, so whether they only know robin as dick grayson from the movies or TV, or even if they only know robin as tim drake from the teen titans cartoon, they'd be able to play on equal ground.

but again, that doesn't mean you CAN'T go into specifics. i mean, i talked specifically about tim drake. so i guess my point is that i have no point. just let's not say robin should lose cuz jason todd was a tool and keep the carrie kelley talk to a minimum. and let's not mention stephenie brown at all.

yeah.

[Lucky]

Whoops. I may have geeked us too far. I ain't touching Carrie though. That's too geek for me.

[OpTard]

lucky, i think you put too much credence in what kind of changes IC might have brought. most if not all characters, especially when talking about the core of the character, are who they've always been. tim is tim. with the exception of a tweak in his costume, he's the robin we all know and love. trust me, everyone is who you think they are, even post IC.

and by the way, i DEFINITELY disagree with your idea of the titans playing second fiddle to the outsiders, but that's an argument for a different time.

[Batman]

The Case for Robin.

All right, I know he doesn't have much of a chance, and I'm not sure I'll vote for him myself against Spidey, but (if we're only counting DCU characters, and Rorschach shouldn't have counted) I ranked him 3rd behind Batman and Superman. And between him and Superman, it was pretty close. Allow me to explain why:

Robin and Batman have a lot in common, (the Dick Grayson and Tim Drake versions, anyway) Dick Grayson lost his parents to crime and vowed to battle crime on account of it just like Batman. Batman taught them everything he could to make them great fighters, detectives, and acrobats--although Dick was already a great acrobat, and Tim a great detective, before they even began training with Batman. But when it comes right down to it, (unless he is being badly mischaracterized by a writer) Batman goes into every situation with perfect confidence that he can come out on top. He knows it, the reader knows it, and the reader knows he knows it. He doesn't need any powers, because he's always more prepared than anyone else for any situation and always one step ahead. This makes for a great character--it's no coincidence he got more points than anyone else, and I'd be shocked if anyone else wins this tourney. But Robin is like Batman writ small--almost as skillful, almost as prepared--but that little bit of difference makes all the difference in the world. Unlike Batman, when he goes into a situation, he doesn't know if he's going to come out on top, nor does the reader. There's no sense of being "bulletproof."

Despite this, he goes up against THIS guy:



Deathstroke is the most dangerous man in the DCU. He doesn't have much by way of powers but he is always a step ahead of the heroes, probably even more so than Batman. He regularly takes on groups of powered superheroes by himself, and usually humiliates them. He is faster, smarter, stronger, a better fighter, and a better tactician than Robin. And yet Robin goes toe-to-toe with him regularly.

Hell, I love Peter Parker, but I think I might have just convinced myself.

[OpTard]

i would say deathstroke is more of a case for nightwing than it is for robin. at least if we're talking about "taking him on regularly." but then again, dick did take on slade regularly when he was still robin, and tim did take on slade regularly in the titans toon.

to i take it back. point valid, and backed up with george prerez artwork, which will get me on your side anyday of the week.

[Lucky]

Toon Titans Robin is SO Dick. I don't care what he looks like. He's leading Cyborg, Beastboy, Raven, and Starfire (granted ALL in Tim's Titans but none of the Young Justice parts are there)... love interest of Starfire... rivaled with Speedy... enemies of Deathstroke... betrayed by Terra... fought Trigon. That's Dick. But it doesn't matter. He's still Robin so its fair that counts. Even if I say the legacy of comics Deathstroke vs Robin is really Slade vs Dick and thus largely Nightwing's.

And don't sweat the Outsiders/Titans thing because its probably not even an arguement. Second fiddle's probably not fair. From the formation of the two teams with Donna Troy's death to Donna's return and IC its just 2 years of 2 halfs of the same group. Or something like that. The Titans don't become Outsiders Jr but I DO think they lose the Justice League Jr tag. They were something else at that stage. A B team linked closer to a B team.

I was just covering my ass with the IC stuff. Just in case I was missing some key change in someone "One Year Later."

[OpTard]

heh. toon titans.

and yes, that stuff IS dick. considering all that stuff is based on the worlfman/perez titans, it can't not be dick. BUT, and i could be mistaken about this since i've watched so little of the show, i believe they CALL him tim in the show. and like i was saying, for the sake of keeping the game accessable, if someone only knows robin as toon titans tim, then tim's gotta get some credit for that stuff, even if it is based on tim.

but then again, i have watched very little of the show, so for all i know they call him dick, but i really don't think they do.

[Lucky]

I don't think they call him anything expect Robin. And I think they've intentionally made hints at both guys so as to keep it ambiguous. But that Robin and Titans are definately the Wolfman/Perez ones so it has to be Dick. I've only watched in passing myself so I don't really know either.

But in the end its Robin so as far as I'm concerned you and Serg are right on that one. I had all but wrote off Deathstroke as Nightwing's enemy until you brought up the cartoon, actually. Throw in the cartoon with the comic battles and its a plenty big chunk. Credit to Robin.

Spidey still wins.

EDIT: Actually according to Wikipedia apparently they've made it pretty clear that Toon Robin is Dick but they've avoided saying it outright just because it doesn't fit the style. Robin's just Robin. But bunches of references for the comic fans. I had completely forgotten that he appears as Nightwing in one episode but I definatelly saw that one.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Titans_(TV_series)#Secret_identities

[salmonjunkie]

Toon Titans Robin has never been called Tim (I've seen 90% of the eps). Physically, his style is more Tim Drake, fighting with a bo-staff, the voice character. But leadership wise, he's more Dick. Also, Starfire has the hots for Robin - and we all know which Robin she has the hots for.

Lastly, while the Toon Titans are never referred to by their real name (except the Doom Patrol episode where they call Beast Boy "Garfield") but they do get alluded to. One episode Cyborg goes undercover as "Stone". But to answer the question about Robin:

In particular, some fans debated which of the comic book Robins leads the Teen Titans. While the series never explicitly states that he is original Robin Dick Grayson, this identity is often implied. For instance, in "Fractured", Robin's alternate dimensional counterpart Larry gives as his real name Nosyarg Kcid ("Dick Grayson" spelled backwards). In another episode where Starfire is thrust into the future, Robin has taken on Grayson's identity of Nightwing. Also, in the episode "Haunted" when Raven goes into Robin's mind, there is a short scene in where two acrobats are doing a show in a circus, one of the main refrences of how Dick Grayson became Robin.

I love both Dick and Tim. But I've been a Spidey-fan forever. Spider-Man is literally my favorite character in all comics. Peter wins.

[OpTard]

well then, i stand corrected. i just always assumed that while the shows were kept seperate, the producers were just playing under the assumption that this was where tim went after batman: TAS ended. my bad.

which is odd though, because i remember in one of the commentaries from JL, they said when they had static shock in an episdoe of JL, they originally planned to have the crossover with titans. you'd think if they were considering it then the shows were in the same universe, and it was tim as robin. i guess one of the reasons they decided against it was to keep robin's identity ambiguous.

[Loki]

I'm respecting the wishes of "making a case" and holding off on the vote for a bit.

That said, I'm leaning more towards Robin than Spidey. Don't get me wrong, I love Spidey, and the arguement about him being the main main in the Marvel U ring pretty strongly. But the Dick (and yes, we're supposed to count eveything Dick did as Robin and not save all dick related stuff for the Nightwing vote, per Tex's rules) arguements made by Serg are pretty convincing and thorough.

[The Canadian Content]

Spidey = superhero
Robin = sidekick

voting for Robin = silly

[OpTard]

that's one of the big differences between dick as robin and tim, i think. dick was a sidekick. tim's a partner.

[williamssl]

salmonjunkie said:

I love...Dick

Inner Beavis laughs mightily.

[The Canadian Content]

operationretard said:

that's one of the big differences between dick as robin and tim, i think. dick was a sidekick. tim's a partner.

I'll admit to not being familiar with Tim, but are you saying that Tim and Bruce are equals? I highly doubt that's the case in the books, much less in the readers' perceptions of their relationship.

[OpTard]

equals in skill? no. but no doubt tim has elevated himself into his own hero who works with batman, not for him. he's smart enough to know to let batman take charge when they work together, but no different from the way green lantern or any other hero who teams up with batman would do the same. tim doesn't HAVE to work with batman to be a hero. he does it because he feels it's the right thing to do. this is why tim is strong enough to carry his own title. because he's NOT a sidekick. even as leader of the titans, dick never would've never been able to do that as robin. he needed to graduate to nightwing to be able to carry his own title.