[williamssl]

Don't know who you wanna vote for next? Got a strong opinion and want to influence the others before they can actually cast a vote?

The next round will be Hulk vs. Wonder Woman and Flash vs. Iron Man - two matchups of #4 vs. #5.

Let the pre-vote smacking begin - meaning use this thread to talk up (or down) the next round of contestants.

[Batman]

The case for the Incredible Hulk.

Hulk fans! Yes, Hulk has a higher seed, but Wonder Woman actually got more points, as ludicrous as that may sound. This will be no cakewalk like the first two match-ups.

The case could be made that the Hulk is merely a nuclear-age Jekyll-and-Hyde. But this is not true--Hyde represented the id, the temptation to transgress the self-imposed strictures of mores and morality. The Hulk represents bottled-up rage towards strictures imposed on us from without--the weight of the expectations of society. That's why his most archetypal adversary is not the Leader or any supervillain...

..but rather the US Army. This mindset and raison-detre give him a unique appeal to teenage boys. But, doesn't everybody feel that way once in a while?

Or, to put it in words of one syllable:

[The Canadian Content]

While I'll grant that "Hulk smash!" is a hysterical catchphrase, I just don't think Hulk is as important to comics or culture as WW is. Hulk is really nothing more than a muscle-bound monster. They're a dime a dozen in comics. I realize that Hulk has likely inspired quite a few of them, but there are still a ton of them around. It gets old.

WW is the iconic woman of comics. The First Lady of comics, if you will. Her character has been used on both sides of women's rights debates -- debates that changed the way women are allowed to live their lives. I don't think the same can be said of Hulk, smash though he might.

As to the other matchup, I loved Flash as a kid. I've never been a fan of Iron Man. I'm voting Flash in 06.

[williamssl]

The case for Wonder Woman:

[Batman]

Psychofish:

I considered also posting "The case against Wonder Woman," but I thought it would be too petty. But I think now that I need to make that argument. The main case for Wonder Woman is that she's one of the "Big 3." Like Superman and Batman, she's supposed to stand apart from Aquaman and Green Arrow--and even GL and Flash, even though they are actually much more popular than she. And why? Because she's the token female.

From DC's point of view, it's Superman, then Batman, then Wonder Woman, then everyone else. But I think that from most fans' point of view, it's Batman, then Superman, then the rest.

Oh, and I think I already made a pretty good argument for why Hulk is more than just a dime-a-dozen strongman. He's the embodiment of bottled-up rage. At least the green version is. And the gray one is a mighty cool take on a more standard Jekyll-and-Hyde character.

Texas: I think I remember somebody saying:

Also, if your logic for greatest superhero ever is driven 100% by “who looks best in spandex”, I guess that’s ok but please stay away from me and my family.

I'm not sure who that was, though.

[OpTard]

i think that rule only counts for dudes and cartoons.

as for me, my initial picks are WW and iron man. but i'm very open to suggestion in this one. more for the hulk/WW one than flash/iron man. i've always thought wally's kind of a tool. barry's ok, but part's time as flash has been an instant failure in my book. so ignoring the fact that stark's been a bigger jerk than lucky lopez since civil war started, that one i gotta give to iron man.

hulk/WW i'm on the fence though. but right now, leaning a bit more towards WW.

[Loki]

Yeah, but she has BOOBS. Female boobs (The Blob's boobs don't count). Women are the exception to Tex's rule.

[Batman]

Oh, thorfag, I'm with you on the Flash though.

[Loki]

How funny is it that three of us posted all at once to basically defend Tex's heterosexuality?

[The Canadian Content]

The main case for Wonder Woman is that she's one of the "Big 3."

The main case for WW might be that she's one of the big 3, but that leaves a lot less to be desired as an argument than "Hulk smash". The big 3 are the big 3 for a reason. They are the most iconic of comics characters. I'm far more a Marvel guy than a DC guy, but I still recognize that the big 3 are far more recognizable to the general (non-geeky) populace than are any of Marvel's characters. With Marvel's recent movies, Spidey and Wolverine are gaining recognition, but they're still not in the same league as Bats, Supes, and WW. (See what I did there with "league"? Clever, no?)

Hulk might be top-5 as far as recognition goes for Marvel. I'd put Spidey, Wolverine, and Cap ahead of him for sure, with possible allowances for Iron Man, the FF, and Punisher. He's certainly not top-3 for his company, and he's not even close to top-10 for comics overall.

[edited to add quote]

[OpTard]

i disagree. i think that thanks to the TV show, hulk is not only top-3 in recognizable marvel characters, i'd put him at #2. i'd say spidey, hulk, cap. in that order.

[The Canadian Content]

But the TV show was, what, 20 years ago? And his movie tanked. There've been 3 X-Men and 2 Spidey movies since Hulk's movie. All 5 of those did really well and were promoted non-stop. I'd definitely put Wolverine in front of Hulk, if not Cyclops and Storm. Maybe even Nightcrawler.

[OpTard]

dude, people don't know who superman is thanks to superman returns. the fact that the hulk TV show was 20 years ago and people still know what it was is further proof. i'd bet any amount of money that if you Joe Q. American (or Joe Q. Canadian), more people would know hulk than wolverine. even thinking of putting cyclops, storm or nightcrawler is a joke.

[OpTard]

oh, and techinically hulk didn't tank. it made it's money.

[Batman]

edited to add: Whoops, as I was typing all this up, you guys were talking about the same thing. Suffice it to say, I agree with Retard.

psychofish sez: Wonder Woman has a higher public profile than the Hulk.

Really? I think somewhere Lou Ferrigno is crying and he doesn't know why. I think that WW's TV show is much more a 70's curiosity than Hulk's. I know which one is being shown on the SciFi channel.

Cap is in my personal top-2 for Marvel, but that's primarily in an "I love the character" kind of way. As far as who of the Marvel characters has the biggest public profile, I think that the Hulk is behind only Spidey and Wolverine, and on an even footing with the rest of their top guys, like Daredevil and Punisher. I hate to say it, but Cap is really more like Iron Man--just "an Avenger" to most.

My point was that DC tries to portray Wonder Woman as being in the same league as Batman and Superman, but I don't think they've ever really succeeded. Marvel doesn't really have a top 3, because a few characters behind Spidey and Wolvey are on pretty much the same level, but that's true of DC, too, even if they try to portray it differently. And I'm not sure how much I would even count WW as being on that second tier with Flash and GL.

On top of all that, how many heroes in this tournament can claim such a long run of excellence as Peter David's run on the Hulk?

[williamssl]

1) I wasn't looking at Wonder Woman's latex. She's wearing latex?
2) I have modified the rules to specifically exclude WW from the "look good in latex" rule
3)

[OpTard]

i seriously think you guys are crazy if you don't think hulk more well known with the public than wolverine, more ingrained with pop-culture than wolverine.

[Batman]

You have a point. I guess I was taking into account just how huge Wolverine is with fandom. I suppose that hasn't really translated into major inroads into regular-joe consciousness just yet. I think he's well on the way, though. He's not even as old as me.

But when it comes to Cap, the general public might be aware of his existence, but I don't think they would consider him a big deal among superheroes, like Superman, Batman, Spiderman and, arguably, Hulk. More like Aquaman.

I'm not basing my argument on Hulk's public profile though, rather on the compellingness of his character. I was just basing my argument against WW on her public profile being kind of a DC corporate illusion.

[The Canadian Content]

Well, I'm willing to drop the Hulk arguments, but if WW is just a corporate illusion, she's a damned effective one.

[DevSop]

In today's society, I would say that Wolverine is approching Spidey levels as to their recognizability. Most anyone from the ages of 10-25 are going to know Wolverine either from the movies or cartoon, The Hulk is something you're only going to know as that horrendous CGI movie or something your parents talk about.

Their was the comic/superhero movie debate on the other board recently and if it wasn't for the X-Men's success we wouldn't be seeing as many comic movies that we are seeing now. And the success of the original X-Men movie is based in large part on Wolverine's character. In my mind, he's definitely #2 on Marvel's side and closer to 1 then 3...and I agree with anyone who's said that The Hulk isn't even #3 on that side. Overall history of Marvel from start to finish has to have Captain and Punisher higher at least, and current Marvel would have to have almost any of the X-Men higher.

[Batman]

That's kind of like saying that because the MI movies have been more successful than Bond's lately, Ethan Hunt is a bigger cultural icon than James Bond. Seriously, Ethan who?

It takes decades to become an entrenched part of popular culture like that. And you don't just drop out of it if you haven't had any high-profile incarnations in a long time. Like Retard pointed out earlier in the thread, if Superman Returns had never been made, Superman would still be the #1 superhero in the world to most folks.

[Lucky]

I'm with Tard. Hulk and WW are both iconic characters. Wolverine is not. End of story. EVERYONE nows who the Hulk is. Just because Wolverine has had some recent mainstream exposure doesn't mean he's beat out 30+ years of Hulk just being ingrained in our psyches. The Hulk movie might have been a relative flop but so what? It still got hyped for a year+ by kick ass promos that had people pumped. It still produced a major money making line of toys and merchandising. Its silly to argue that Hulk's public stature is hurt because his show was way back in the '70s. Wasn't WW's? And her movie has stayed on the backburner for years. WW hasn't done anything mainstream but be a cast member of a cartoon in the last 30 years (and Hulk had his own cartoon). But she retains her icon status just fine. Lou Ferigno and Linda Carter get to both run around as cameo favorites becuase of the iconic characters they played 30 years ago. And kids are still prepped to wear Hulk and WW costumes tomorrow regardless of how long its been since there was a movie or how bad the movie was.

I just never got anything from WW. Maybe its that the greek mythology spin of the character never appealled to me. Which is weird because I loved the stuff as a kid, but I guess I just don't want it in my DCU. WW's also struck me as a very one dimensional character. Maybe its that I don't have a personal attachment to the plight of women's rights. Or maybe its that the original character was such a silly play at restraining women. Or maybe its that the recent WW was a bit too bitch for me. Either way I've never got into her. And in the buildup to IC I was reading fucking Aquaman. But WW was no fun. And yet I kinda like her sidekicks. Except for the weird minotaur who does office work for her. See, that's the stuff that makes me really not want mythology in my DCU. The minotaur secretary.

Hulk's never excited me either but I care more than WW. If nothing else the Mr. Fixit era was kind of fun (gray sociopath Hulk who wore a trenchcoat and served as a merc) and I kind of liked the 90s version that had all the brains of banner and muscle of Hulk. Of course the asshole started hanging out with a bunch of weird mythology freaks then so that doesn't help his case. Still, that was a phase. Its in WW's job description.

In the end I vote against WW for a single reason. Purple Death Ray.

I'm 90% sure I'm voting Flash over Iron Man so maybe I'll build a case for him later. Wally West WAS a tool. I hated him in the JLE days. And the Kid Flash "I'm a Republican and you pussy liberal fags don't respect that!" character was really weird. I think he stopped being a tool quite awhile ago though and I've loved everything since. Barry was pretty solid too and he has one of the great sacrifices of comics.

Tony never did anything for me, personally. Always came off as a pretentious tool to me. And it seems like all his big moments are about how much of a drunk he is or his mistakes with his business. Too self absorbed. I don't like it.

[Evil Scotty]

I've always liked the hulk more. I've never collected his comics, I do remember the DC vs marvel cross over and the Hulk losing to Superman which is respectful. But WW losing to Storm? That's down right shame full.
Flash has always been one of my favorites. No idea why, I've always enjoyed his storylines.

[DevSop]

But the difference is Bond movies are still being made and they're always in the spotlight when they are and Mission Impossible isn't as huge a franchise as X-Men. I know The Hulk at one time was a large icon in culture and society, but that was 30 years ago and even if the move "made" money it's widely considered a massive flop. The X-Men movies were huge hits and at the very least are going to spawn off 1 spinoff and could do multiple based on anything. And your metaphor of MI and Bond doesn't work because Bond movies have been continuously made the entire time and for the most part are moderately successful. The Hulk hasn't been a recognizable marketing figure in close to 25 years. Wolverine is the star of the X-Men ensemble movie, getting his own movie, was basically the cult figure of the original cartoon. And I hate the Hulk.

And Wonder Woman has a chance to be very very hot if they cast right...coughCharismaCarpentercough.

[Deleted]

I'll sum up who I'm likely voting for between Hulk/WW by saying I actually have NO clue what Wonder Woman does and what her powers are other than a magical lasso. And that likely makes her a dyke, disallowing any "worship" of her due to boobage.

And DC will likely get one of its few votes from me with Flash/Iron Man. I've always thought Iron Man is very over-rated, much like my view of Captain America. We'll see if Robert Downey Jr. and John Favreau can change my mind.