[Lucky]

Its also two completely different styles. Dusty is like the ultimate face of that period. Douglas is like the ultimate heel of his period. Hell, if Douglas was 10 years older or Dusty 10 years younger they probably would have been warring with each other. Douglas is basically what a '90s Flair would have been anyway.

[The Canadian Content]

He was a HEEL?

[The Canadian Content]

luckylopez said:

Douglas is like the ultimate heel of his period. Hell, if Douglas was 10 years older or Dusty 10 years younger they probably would have been warring with each other. Douglas is basically what a '90s Flair would have been anyway.

I'm sorry, are you saying that this Douglas character was the ultimate heel of he 90s?

I disagree, but I'm afaid 'm unable to offer difinitive proof for any candidate of my own. Because I'm sketchy with dates, I'm afraid I'll have to nominate Vince as the ultimate evil, only because he's been the tooliest guy for the last, what, 14 years?

Sorry, shawn dedalus, but Vince wins.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

psychofish said:

shawn dedalus

Aaaaand now I know for sure Hodgey's drunk. That was a beauty, eh?

[The Canadian Content]

fsolomon75 said:

psychofish said:

shawn dedalus

Aaaaand now I know for sure Hodgey's drunk. That was a beauty, eh?

Word, yo.

Now, you know I'm drunk.

[The Canadian Content]

psychofish said:

fsolomon75 said:

Aaaaand now I know for sure Hodgey's drunk. That was a beauty, eh?

Word, yo.

Now, you know I'm drunk.

And now, you know that I know I'm drunk.

Night, bitches.

[mta: still not voting for a guy I don't care about vs. a guy I never heard of...]

[Lucky]

At least that explains why half of that didn't seem to make any sense.

Besides Raven Shane was THE heel of ECW. He threw down the NWA belt and that gets celebrated as the start of ECW but it was a heel act. He spit on tradition and anyone. He called the fans pieces of shit. He betrayed his best friend Cactus Jack. He was obsessed with the ECW Title. He won the TV title purely to spite 2 Cold Scorpio (who was considered the greatest champ at that time) and then proceeded to kick it and drag it on the ground proclaiming it a piece of shit that he didn't want until the day that he actually lost it. He briefly worked as a quasi-face against Raven but only because he wanted the title off of Raven. He struck a deal with Dreamer to protect Beulah and his child and forced an alliance with Sandman through his dealings. Then he betrayed Dreamer and tried to destroy him and Raven by revealing that Beulah was never pregnant at all. He broke Pitbull #1's neck and taunted him. When the Pitbull showed up wearing a halo he grabbed it and shook it and the ECW Arena rioted. People tried to kill him and Francine over the things they were doing and saying. He also routinely decimated Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair in promos because he despised them and thought they were the biggest pieces of shit that walked the planet. Which in the ECW "fuck WWF/WCW" climate COULD be taken as face actions but were ultimately heel ones.





This is a little long and rambly but its typical Franchise tearing people apart and the crowd ready to kill him.


These are ECW "Pulp Fiction" segments. Which means it was the entire roster cutting promos in a montage. So its a lot of non-Douglas stuff but some good Douglas stuff. And if you've never watched ECW watch some, because this stuff was cool.

[creepy]

Lucky,

Its also two completely different styles. Dusty is like the ultimate face of that period.

Yeah. Until Vince gave him polka-dots.

Douglas is like the ultimate heel of his period.

Are you fucking kidding me? He had to go to a company clinging onto a former "name" and then "2 Get Extreme!" they spit in the eye of one of the greatest traditions in the business just to make some headlines. He couldn't hack it with the big boys, so he made his name in the minors on a former big league clubs already damaged reputation. Then he was a great heel for a fews years. Then he went to WCW and was ok in their dying, shitty days. I loved ECW, but this is ludicrous.

Hell, if Douglas was 10 years older or Dusty 10 years younger they probably would have been warring with each other.

Maybe, we'll never know.

Douglas is basically what a '90s Flair would have been anyway.

HUH? I liked Douglas as a heel, I really did. But this is like comparing a AAA MVP that turned in an ok Major Leaguer against a fucking Hall of Famer.



And at least Roode has an upside. Douglas is done. And his on screen persona has just turned annoying.

[Lucky]

If you really think so little of ECW and think that Douglas just couldn't cut it and think that its like kicking ass in AAA then just stop replying to my shit.

I didn't say Douglas was THE heel of the '90s and I didn't mean to say that Dusty was THE face of his period (even if he might have been but Hogan probably has an argument against that). Douglas wasn't on the stage or had the foils to define it like that. But he was what the heel of the '90s strived for. He was the Loose Cannon that Pillman was. He was the jet flyer that Flair was. He made the crowd hate him like Bret did. He could tell the honest to God truth and tell it in a way that made you fucking hate him. He orchestrated half of the events of ECW and pulled everyone's strings in a way Mr. McMahon could only dream of. And in a company that was proud that it could not be shocked and did more than anyone else he committed an act and had such blatant lack of guilt for it that the fucking crowd wanted him dead.

JUST FUCKING VOTE FOR DUSTY, creepy. For fuck's sake, you've made it clear you think Douglas ain't worth shit. WE GET IT. I was making a case. And if shitting on ECW is your argument against Douglas then you've already made it and people can decide if they think ECW is worth judging as one of the biggest things in wrestling history or a third rate promotion that harbored AAA hacks who couldn't cut it in the big leagues.


EDIT: And I can't believe I'm having this argument with someone who listed Mike Awesome 7 and Johnny Nitro 9 on his greatest wrestlers list. And who is voting for Hayes for what appears to be the same basic resume of getting a smaller than national audience to fucking despise him and play a master heel, even if it was never on a major stage.

[creepy]

Jeez. Love you, Lucky. You are 100% right about the Hayes comparison. People wanted convincin', so I started that. Than you started to argue with me. Just defending what I said and exchanging verbalities.

I loved ECW and like Douglas' heel work. Just didn't think..... awww, you know. Not even the biggest Dusty fan, but had to put in some thoughts.

[Lucky]

Your whole argument here has seemed to be that Dusty succeeded to greater levels on a bigger stage so Douglas, no matter if he was good at what he did, shouldn't be able to step up to that. If that was just an argument for argument's sake then I think my outburst is pretty warranted. If it really is sincere I really do question how you can support Hayes over Booker without being completely hypocritical and in a belligerent manner. But I also said I can understand the Hayes votes because I understand what he is. You're screaming that I'd dare to make a case for Douglas. And I probably stopped wanting to hear it sometime around the use of "wankers" or the silly sarcasm that "nothing is better than what's best right now" or invoking Bobby Roode to get a reaction.

Judge Hayes for what he was. Booker for what he was/is. Dusty for what he was. Douglas for what he was. Not for what they all failed to do in comparison to each other despite playing different roles in different companies in different eras with different dance partners.

If you wanna argue points, argue points. I'm not gonna tell you to shut up because I have a higher opinion of a guy. But your WHOLE argument seems to be that ECW is a third rate promotion and Douglas couldn't or at least didn't do shit anywhere else, so he can't be on Dusty's level. I call that bullshit and hypocritical given the Hayes thread. But whatever it is, you made it clear about 2 pages ago.

[creepy]

That's pretty hypocritical of me. You made me realize this. Booker should probably have gotten a little more consideration from me against Hayes. But regardless of the strength of the company or the decade, I still think that 10 year top face > 3 year top heel. But I guess the time frame is probably more important than I realize.



Damn it, Lucky. You cold hearted son of a gun. Now I have no idea if being on the big stage is more important than quality entertainment. Urrrggg.

[Lucky]

Rocky Maivia debuted on 11/17/96. He joined the Nation in the summer of '97. He stopped competing regularly on 4/27/03. So The Rock is considered one of the greatest of all time despite his entire career lasting less than 5 and 1/2 years and The Rock character only existing for less than 5 years.

Shane Douglas turned on Tommy Dreamer on 12/4/93. He wrestled his final ECW match on 4/3/99. He continued as a regular in WCW until around January of '01. So even presuming you ignore his WCW run The Franchise's ECW prime lasted the same basic amount of time that Rock's entire career did. Not 3 years, 5+ (besides a 6 month tenure as Dean Douglas which I figure we can call even to Rock's initial face run). If you are like me and think the Revolution, New Blood, Kidman feud, and Flair feud were at least as motivated and entertaining as the last couple of years of Rock's mailing it in then Douglas had a much better longer run. Not to mention the stuff he did before ECW.

'90s and 2000s wrestling moves faster than '70s and '80s. You can accomplish a LOT more in a shorter time. And Douglas, like Rock, was there in THE biggest moment of wrestling history. When viewership was at its highest and the business was changing. When internet and TV coverage was nonstop weekly TV and monthly PPVs were the standard. He was a big part of wrestling's golden era. I think reducing it to "10 year top face > 3 year top heel" is silly and you might as well be arguing that Cena's holding the WWE title for as long as he has is just the same as Hogan doing it.

This is not to say that I compare Franchise to the Rock. Rock was just a guy I thought of as a completely accepted great who had a pretty short run. That it happened to run so close to Douglas' was just coincidence.

[Batman]

Good analysis, Lucky.

Maybe a bit overkill though, since creepy already surrendered.

Then again, creepy may have given up, but the race is still really close. Convincing an undecided might make the difference as to who wins this one.


(Oh, and exalt for kicking creepy while he's down!)

[Lucky]

Yeah, I was trying to make the case a bit more for undecideds. But while Creepy conceded the "regional" aspect of the argument he restated the "length of tenure" aspect. That's why I addressed that. Because I really do think 5 years in the '90s can mean a lot more than 10 in the '80s. They were different worlds. But I also think if we can find a wrestler who was an absolute god for 3 years that he shouldn't have that counted against him because it was "only" 3 years *coughRockcough*. Which again, is not to say that the Franchise was a "god" just to argue the basic approach.

And actually he didn't so much concede the regional aspect as concede that he may have applied it unfairly in the Hayes/Booker showdown. He still seems to think that level of exposure is a key issue, even if he doesn't seem too heartbroken that he might have been unfair to Booker.

[creepy]

I thought about this alot today and realized that the only heels I ever truly despised were 80's Horsemen and The Freebirds. Most other heels I didn't give a shit about or I thought they were cool. The Horsemen and Freebirds just made me hate them.

Dusty being the face against Flair always seemed to elevate him in my eyes. Hall of Famers vrs Hall of Famers cemented my position here. Sorry that we disagree, Lucky. Just doing what I was asked to do.

[Lucky]

By the way, if this fight had occurred in the Pittsburgh bracket Douglas would have the edge! Damn this biased ranking system slotting them in an area more favorable to Dusty!!

[Mikey]

Oops.