[Mikey]

Mike Awesome... rest in peace.





Voting closes on Monday at 11:59 EST.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

For years my Dad would watch one WWF PPV match. The Undertaker's. I'd have to go get him from whatever he was doing when his match started. For years you could always bank on two big time matches on the card: The WWF Title Match & Undertaker vs. Monster of the Month.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

I've been going to WWF events since 1984 and there is NOTHING that tops a Taker entrance.

[creepy]

I always thought the gay spooky stuff was really gay. And not very spooky. If this was gonna be close, I'd vote UT becsause he's the bigger, well, everything, but Awesome was Awesome. And needs at least one vote.

[salmonjunkie]

Awesome is the only one of these two who is actually dead.

[Stu]

Gay Spooky>Fat Chick Thriller.

[DevSop]

I'm shocked that Creepy voted for one of the biggest assholes within the wrestling business. Have some fucking class and don't try to bring the ECW World Championship on Nitro to throw it in the garbage.

[Batman]

Tommy: Oh, man, that was awesome. You would not believe the face heat I've gotten from calling you an asshole for doing that. Good going, man.

Mike: Yeah, it's a shame it didn't translate into anything for me. But, you know, they have to bury the other promotion's champ.

Tommy: Yeah, that really sucks man. "Fat chick thrilla"? There has to have been something more compelling they could have done with you. I'd love to invite you back here, but I think it's too soon. The mutants think I legit hate you over the trash can thing. It's not like we would ever have somebody disrespect another promotions title to get heat.

Mike: Ha, ha, yeah that's never happened. What a bunch of dorks.

Tommy: Hey, now. Those "dorks" are my paycheck.

Mike: I heard those were bouncing . . .

*devsop enters room*

Tommy: YOU ARE WITHOUT A DOUBT THE BIGGEST ASSHOLE IN ALL OF WRESTLING. DISRESPECTING THE ECW TITLE IS THE WORST THING ANYONE HAS EVER DONE.

Mike: YEAH? WELL AT LEAST MY PAYCHECK DOESN'T BOUNCE BITCH!

*devsop backs out the way he came*

Mike and Tommy: Hahahahahaha!

Tommy: Aaaah. Wanna get a bite?

Mike: Nothing gross, right? Yeah, sure.

[DevSop]

So completely confused...

[creepy]

devilsoprano said:

I'm shocked that Creepy voted for one of the biggest assholes within the wrestling business. Have some fucking class and don't try to bring the ECW World Championship on Nitro to throw it in the garbage.

Although Serg said it better, how is this all that different?

You know Dev, if you bust your ass at your job and they stop paying you, even as the (supposedly) top guy, then would you leave to a rival company with more money/exposure/talent/resources? And they'ed gaurantee your money for a lengthy time. And all you have to do is disrespect your company, who apparently doesn't give much of a shit about you and who did something similar to a Historic Legacy 5 years prior.


Whatcha gonna do?!?!?!?!

[Lucky]

I don't get this?

Creepy, if its a classless asshole move, its a classless asshole move. Your analogy is shit because it doesn't recognize that a wrestling company's title and image is a key part of its success. And that Dev's little company was trying to make the next leap. And that his little company really didn't have any problem with him leaving them for a better personal situation as they had let dozens of guys do the same in the past and held no hard feelings. But while all of those dozens of men were decent enough to

Serg, you might be right. Maybe it was a work. But why the hell would you presume that when everyone from Tommy to Awesome to Heyman to Joey to Foley to Tazz to New Jack to Raven to Lance Storm to Bischoff continues to tell the story the way we've always heard it? Do you know something I don't? Otherwise I'll just go with the Occam's Razor thing, or something like that.

Hey, if I don't hold it against Benoit that he's a child killer I won't hold it against Awesome that he's a prick who tried to hurt ECW. Then again he was an often overweight and lazy worker who never did half of what Undertaker did in terms of success, great matches, or memorable moments. A dude who had maybe 3 years of quality work, and half of that was spent with him in a leisure suit or with another retarded gimmick (maybe not his fault but it is what it is).

[creepy]

I don't get this?

So it's ok for Douglas to shit on the NWA title, but if anyone shits on the ECW title, then fuck 'em. THEY'S GOTSTA PAYS!


Winning a tournament then shitting on the title is ok. Not getting paid then getting an offer that is only valid (I assume) if Awesome did what he did is horrible. Hey, at least he came back and lost the belt....to a WWE GUY!!!

[Lucky]

You're spinning it because you're an asshole. NWA was more of a dying company that fucked Douglas around than ECW was a dying company that fucked Awesome around. NWA was burying Douglas and blackballing him around the country. They were screwing ECW around and that's why everyone was happy to fuck them over.

That being said, call the shit equal. Throw in Madusa dumping the WWF Women's Title in the trash. Then it becomes about personal interpretations. Which belt meant more? If you think the NWA did you're retarded. The NWA title meant so little at that stage that it was being rewarded in an ECW that had yet to make a name for itself and become the king of the indies. However low the ECW Title may be to you (and I love that you continue to pretend you liked ECW when you shit all over it in every showdown) it was higher than the NWA belt was. Hell, it was higher than the NWA belt is now.

And Douglas at least made a moment and something happen. If Awesome had done it and created one of the most jaw dropping moments in wrestling history then it would be treated that way. Would ECW loyalists still be angry? Sure. I'm sure there's SOMEONE other than you who gives enough of a shit about the NWA to be mad at Douglas. But would people hold it up as a holy fuck moment that helped change the business, if it had... you know... done that? Yes. But it didn't, it was just a ripoff of past angles and it got stopped. It also happened at time when the Monday Night Wars and Attitude era were well under way and the SHOCKING things that became the early stages of it would no longer be as shocking.

But fuck, call Shane Douglas and ECW unprofessional and assholes for doing it. Raven does. That makes Awesome a prick and an asshole. So what the fuck is your problem? Douglas did more than a few kick ass Tanaka matches to stick in my head.

[creepy]

Just think they're similar. Shit on what you shouldn't be shitting on. Whatever. I guess ECW is edgy. WCW just ripped off the idea. Boo WCW, Boo.

[DevSop]

Not even arguing anymore.

[Lucky]

Go the fuck away, Creepy. I took you argument and I made a counter argument. Instead of making a counter argument or saying you disagree with my points you make your sarcastic and condescending shit. If that's all you want to contribute to this board then listen to Dev because I'm fucking over it.

Yes, ECW doing something 6 years before WCW does it gets precedence. OH SHIT! Seriously? Why? Because it came 6 years earlier? Yes, dumbass. And Awesome probably wasn't even gonna ripoff Douglas. He was probably ripping off Flair or Madusa. I conceded they were similar, I argued there was a difference. But you're a hypocrite anyway because you used Douglas' against him and don't hold Awesome's against him. But you were a hypocrite about Hayes and Douglas. And you don't seem to be giving Sting the same respect you gave Dusty as Flair's foil and THE face. So I don't expect anything more from you.

[Batman]

luckylopez said:

Serg, you might be right. Maybe it was a work.

I did not at all mean to imply that it was a work in the sense of being something pre-planned or that ECW was cool with. Of course not. I just can't understand that grown men genuinely get butt hurt over the crap guys do to get heat, whether it be throwing a title in a garbage can, Foley spitting on a title, or Nash mocking Arn. It's like "dude, I didn't say that about you, my character said that about your character." All's fair, you know?

I like to imagine that when no fans were looking most ECW guys didn't genuinely harbor any ill-will towards Awesome. But maybe they did. If so, I personally think they should get some fucking perspective. But that's just me.

[Lucky]

I do think the Madusa, Awesome, and Douglas things are different though. Nash mocking Arn doesn't damage Arn, unless the fans really do think Arn is a joke. Disrespecting titles in other companies? That's kinda different. Especially when its going around the back of the company and doing shit you KNOW they wouldn't be cool with.

People might forgive but it seems different. And the ECW guys seem to have not forgiven Awesome to the point where some of them had some nasty shit to say when he died.

[Batman]

Random wrestlers who happened to once work for ECW when asked to comment on the passing of Mike Awesome said things to the effect of "fuck him, he threw the ECW title in the garbage, he was an asshole, I'm glad he's dead." Really?

What. The. Fuck.

There have been people in the wrestling business who were murderers, other who were rapists, others who have beat their wives, and others who have done disgusting things to prostitutes. And yet Mike Awesome is the biggest asshole in wrestling? Because he dicked over his employer for the sake of an angle and to get in good with his new employer? So much of an asshole that his fellow wrestlers feel justified in speaking ill of the dead?

The only people who have any cause to be mad at him are Heyman and Dreamer. ECW was their company, not a company they just happened to work for. Awesome went behind their backs, nobody else's. It was their intellectual and physical property that he threw in the trashcan.

But those facts have to be tempered by this one: If they had had the opportunity to do the same thing to the WWF or WCW? They would have jumped at it.

[Lucky]

I never said random guys called him the biggest scum in the business. But guys like Joey, Foley, Raven, Douglas, Sandman, and New Jack had less than kind words about his character. But I suspect most of them have priorities. Go listen to what New Jack has to say about Benoit. Its worse.

And yeah, I'm not saying that all of these guys are sincere. Obviously Shane Douglas criticizing Awesome is pretty hypocritical. It makes sense to him because in his opinion NWA was dead and fucking him and ECW was an opportunity and something new and it was a great company he wanted to be loyal to (within reason, because he left for money twice). But down at the bottom its the same basic thing. On the other hand, Raven calls Douglas a scumbag move. He calls Awesome a scumbag move. So he's pretty consistent.

I'm not making a real value judgment on it. Like I said, I voted for the child killer so I'm not gonna vote against Awesome for some unethical business conduct. I'm just saying, there's reason for some to take it as a mark against his character. And there IS some reason to SEE the Douglas incident as different because of the context of it, even if they are basically the same thing (although in reality we don't know if he was gonna trash it like Douglas/Madusa or carry it like Flair).

[Batman]

My morbid curiosity got the better of me and I went looking for these less than kind words, and I found this instead:

Tazz: "I have no problem with Mike Awesome. I had a problem with the way he did business. And Mike knew I felt that way, a lot of guys felt that way about Mike. I think if Mike had to do it all over again, he'd do it different. People make mistakes in life, make wrong moves, and it's fine. But I personally never had heat with Mike. If the fans want to think that, that's fine, that's good for business. But there was never heat."

That's just the perspective on it I was trying to get across with my little imaginary dialogue earlier in the thread.

[Lucky]

And all I was really trying to say was that he did something that ran the risk of screwing a bunch of those guys over. Taz wasn't one of those guys. Maybe that means he has a different perspective than Joey Styles, who tore him apart at ONS including wished he'd kill himself (a comment Joey has said is regretful since the direction his life took). Or maybe Taz just reacts differently. SOME of these guys legitimately hate Awesome. Some think he was an asshole and he tried to fuck them. Some probably take the Kevin Nash "its business and this business sucks so I have no standards for anyone" approach.

Your play sort of made it sound like He and other ECW guys (Dreamer, I presume in that scenario) could laugh about it and think its all a big joke and work. That they basically wanted what was best for Awesome and if tossing the ECW title in the trash was it then go for it. And then you threw in the part where the ECW fan wanders in and Dreamer puts on the show of pretend vitrol, only to laugh when he's gone. THAT's the message I think there's no evidence of and seems kinda far struck.

I'm sure there's no standard reaction. Taz thinks it was screwed up but doesn't seem to harbor ill will. Joey was spitting mad a couple of years ago and I'm pretty sure he wrote a tempered column after Awesome's death that said he still pretty much thought he was an ass (I can't find it but if it exists it should be archived on WWE.com so I'll keep looking). Like I said, Raven has come out and said what Douglas did was fucked up. So there are going to be lots of reactions.

And that goes for fans too. Dev's a Mutant and a more passionate and emotional ECW fan than I. He feels stronger about it and thinks Dreamer is one of the greatest wrestlers ever. Creepy says he was a fan but has clearly shown that he thought ECW was a 3rd rate promotion with inferior talent that he basically values MUCH less than Texas Wrestling. He seems to not only not thing much of it but seems to think Douglas' NWA move was worse because the NWA > ECW. I am a Mutant and a passionate ECW fan, not as much so as Dev. I think it was a scumbag move and it was a scumbag move that could have hurt MY company. So it sits different than the Douglas thing to me. But I also don't judge Awesome as much more than a dude who made a shitty decisions that a few people I respect and like did before him.

Hell, I LIKE Awesome. I marked out for him when he showed up in ECW, I loved Team Canada in WCW, I was disappointed that WWE couldn't find a place for him (one of many Invasion disappointments), and I was even more disappointed when he popped up in TNA fat and lazy and damn near unrecognizable looking 10 years older. He just don't belong in this showdown.

[creepy]

What they all did was shitty but I don't care about that aspect of it. I didn't vote against Douglas because he screwed the NWA. I voted against Douglas because he was against Dusty, who, while I don't love, I certainly respect. I just made a case for Dusty over Douglas because people asked and nobody tried to convince for Dusty. The Douglas incident and his career was important, but not as important, to me, as what Dusty did.

Booker entertains me, but not as much as Hayes did. Was mostly on a smaller stage, but he made me hate him.

To me, Dusty>Douglas>Hayes>Booker
Or Douglas and Hayes can be flopped. To me.

Never thought Sting was on the same level. He seemed, again to me, a flash in the pan that lasted 20 years. Never saw what others saw in him, that's all. Never saw him as an equal to the Horsemen, Race, Dusty or the like. Sorry, just don't.


Ok, Lucky. I'll go until next round. Sorry to ruffle your feathers.

[Lucky]

How does a flash in the pan last 20 years?

You may not have voted against Douglas because of the NWA thing but you did bring it up to try and excuse Awesome's ECW incident. You equated them, when realistically they are not equal. They might be in a basic ethical sense. In fact, they probably are. But there's also no denying that (a) the NWA was dead and so low that it was trying to rebuild itself on ECW's back while ECW was the 3rd promotion in the company with TV and PPV deals and (b) Douglas' became a majorly shocking moment that WCW had already repeated once before Awesome and which is remembered (perhaps inaccurately) as the start of ECW, the company that became a legend and helped change the business forever.

You don't have to justify your votes to me. But when you say that Douglas was too regional to win over a national star with nearly 2 decades of work and simultaneously argue that a regional wrestler need not be judged poorly against a national star with nearly 2 decades... you're being hypocritical (and you even admitted it). When you bring up Douglas/NWA as a negative to excuse Awesome/ECW as inconsequential... you're at best cherry picking. And when you argue as a MAJOR element of Dusty's case that he was THE face of NWA/WCW and the foil to Flair for more than a decade but then ignore that Sting was THE face of WCW and the foil to Flair for more than a decade? C'mon.

And mostly I just find your sarcastic, dismissive, and seemingly drunk debating style to be pretty annoying and counter productive. You didn't annoy me because you disagreed with me or even because you were constantly insulting me. It was because it was frustrating to get NOWHERE. As opposed to my debates with Dev, Serge, and others who even when we can't come to an agreement at least seemed to come to understandings.

[Batman]

(mta this post is obviously intended to respond to lucky's post two posts up)

The thing is, I can't see for a second how he ran the risk of screwing a bunch of guys over, at least not specifically by throwing the title in the trash. Defecting to another company so that ECW had one less guy to build main events around, I can see how that hurt the company and could potentially hurt the guys working there. (Although they were free to go elsewhere, and in the end, almost all of them did.) But throwing the title in the trash itself? Did that really speed the death of ECW by one second?

It should have done the exact opposite. It caused controversy and brought attention to ECW, and gave them something to cut emotional promos about. I don't see how that's not 100% good. That's what I was getting at, and maybe they didn't see it that way, but I can't see why not.

I remember Styles' scathing commentary on Awesome at ONS. I remember thinking it was great. He was making him out to be the biggest Judas ever, which was exactly how Styles-the-character ought to feel about Awesome-the-character. It didn't occur to me for a second that Styles might really feel that way, or at least that strongly. It made the match seem all the more special because of the "never thought we'd see" factor, much like Bischoff showing up on Raw.