[Byrntrigan]

But serg - the difference in this one would be that she;d be doing them both on the same show! And if she comes up against herself in a tourney, then pull out the ol' Alfred in the Batsuit hijinks.

Shit, I'd probably look close enough to her under a black bedsheet ;D

[Batman]

Eric's been trying to claim that Super-Eric is a different guy.

And I wasn't watching at the time, but I understand that Dustin was doing the same with Black Reign.

[bdbdbd]

When the Black Reign gimmick started, he warned us it was coming, but that he had no control over it. For the first couple of appearances Reign would do stuff, then Dustin would be interviewed and have no recollection of any of these actions. His entire feud with Kaz was based on that premise (Kaz feuded with Dustin because Black Reign attacked him backstage for no reason). This eventually flipped a switch in Dustin/Reign and now he is Black Reign full time.

[Lucky]

Yeah, the proposed Melissa/Saeed thing isn't really the same as Eric/Super Eric, Rhodes/Reign, or Daniels/Curry Man (which I presume was your 3rd). Rhodes is just a crazy guy who doesn't know he's Reign, but we do and now he seems to be Reign full time. Young is... I'm not sure. I presume its like a child trying to convince the adults that he's invisible and knowing he's not but not having the maturity to realize that they know it too. Curry Man is the closest to the Melissa/Saeed idea because its just Daniels playing another character under the mask and trying to fool us. And presumably succeeding because he has a job when Daniels was fired and none of the announcers, wrestlers, or Cornette are questioning his identity. I read the idea as Saeed wrestles one week, Melissa wrestles the next. Its like those "I want Daniels and Curry Man on separate teams in the World X Cup" idea we had.

But I do agree that while its an idea I think could work it seems like the same thing as Curry Man and seems like overkill. Especially since EY and Reign are close enough to make it look like its a TNA obsession. Its like how Stone Cold Shark Boy really didn't bug me and I love Curry Man but when watching Lockdown with a bunch of non-TNA fans and the opener had them, Sonjay Dutt, and Jay Lethal they were of the impression that TNA was all stupid WWE ripoffs and ridiculous comedy characters.

[Batman]

I don't know if Black Reign is as straightforward as that. Kaz seemed to have the POV of "give me a break, you don't really have multiple personalities. This is all just mind games." It's ambiguous, you could take it either way.

I like the way you phrased your Super Eric explanation--good comparison. But it might not be that he doesn't realize that the "grown ups" know that Super Eric and Eric Young are the same person. Maybe it's that he can't acknowledge that it's not really a secret, or he'd lose the psychological advantage that his alter-ego affords him. I like that kayfabe, as it seems most realistic.

I know that doesn't explain the fact that he can break handcuffs. Maybe he switched all of the handcuffs for rigged ones. No-one else could break theirs because there's a trick to it that you'd have to know. Maybe.

I agree with you about all of the gimmicks. I like each of them individually, but the cumulative effect is kind of ... silly.

[Lucky]

When Reign first showed up last summer they make it very clear to us that Dustin has a long history of mental illness, that everyone in wrestling knew he was harboring demons, and that schizophrenia was in fact something that noone was surprised by. His first feud was with Chris Harris, an old friend, and it was all built upon Dustin's mind finally snapping and his friends having expected it all along. True that now he and Rellik seem to be playing it just for mind games but they've never actually done anything to suggest they don't believe in themselves.

Of course Reign was originally supposed to be Dustin's worst nightmare come to life, and Rellik was supposed to be Reign's worst nightmare come to life. So Rellik is kinda like Mr. Snuffalufagus where I'm not sure if he's supposed to be imaginary or what. Its all very lame.

As are breaking handcuffs. Rigged cuffs don't work because Kaz couldn't bust out of them and he was trying. Of course maybe he's a wuss. But since there were 11 pairs and Young had no way of knowing that would be the pair that he or Kaz would end up in he would have had to rig 10 others. Which means they're all wusses who can't break cuffs even though Homicide was flipping around like a madman trying to get out of them and Hoyt, Hernandez, Rellik, Reign, and Steiner are all clearly stronger than EY.

Its lame. Too much lameness and silliness in TNA right now. TNA's gotta pick the ones they like the most and write out the rest. Firing Reign/Rellik, giving up on Black Machismo, and no more super strength would satisfy me.

[Batman]

There's a trick to it, I said. OK, yeah, it's dumb. It makes for a cool visual image, though.

Rellik and Reign are the whole point of Super Eric. Though maybe he should succeed in completely "vanquishing" them at some point. Then move on to Sting. A quest to bring back surfer Sting?

I agree that Black Machismo and Stone Cold Shark Boy shouldn't be going concurrently, and Machismo has had more time to run its course, and Lethal would lose less by dropping it than Shark Boy.

[Batman]

I love how the 12-Pack thread naturally devolves into TNA fantasy booking.

To bring things back on topic for a moment:

VOTE. THE FUCK. UP!

Just a few hours left, all. Show your support for Joe. Or, if you prefer, voice a dissenting opinion. Joe has been ranked 1 or 2 (mostly 1) on every ballot so far....

[jetskid48]

Apr 16, 2008 13:24:29 GMT -5 Batman said:

I agree that Black Machismo and Stone Cold Shark Boy shouldn't be going concurrently, and Machismo has had more time to run its course, and Lethal would lose less by dropping it than Shark Boy.

But you probably have to take into account how much each has gained by it too. Lethal was just another X Division guy to most people. Now, most TNA outsiders know exactly who he is and he's moved up the card quite a bit. Does Sharkboy in any incarnation have that ability? He was basically a jobber beforehand, now he's a jobber that does a really good Stone Cold impression. If he lost the impression, he's still in the same spot. If Lethal loses the Black Machismo stuff, there's a chance he could also lose a bit of personality in the process, something that has really helped him separate himself from others in the X division, and really let his abilities shine.

But then again, I think his gimmick was a really original idea at the the time (and still like it), and I hate the Shark Boy crap, so I'm probably biased.

[Lucky]

No doubt that Lethal benefited from the gimmick. But I think its safe to say that he (a) no longer needs it because he's been made distinctive and (b) that its hurting TNA more than its helping him. Lethal can't be a Macho Man impersonator his entire career. He's gonna have to sink or swim on "Jay Lethal" sooner or later. He's established as someone with personality, he's got established relationships, he's the X Champ in good standing, he's got a blood feud seemingly on the horizon.

Stone Cold Shark Boy was never anything more than a way to reinvigorate an undercard comedy act and sell some new merchandise. It worked and I really don't have a problem with it, especially teamed with Curry Man in the goofy tag team. SC Shark Boy and Black Machismo were both the same thing but with different intentions. Black Machismo has accomplished all it will. The only way to drag it any further is to do a "Macho King" heel turn with Val. But since Roode is already the misogynist in the company and TNA has already established that Lethal isn't really as insane and deluded as he seemed because he's dropped the character... now it seems a waste. Because I watch Lethal interact with Val and I ask "Why the hell is he talking in a Macho Man voice while working out?" Before we were led to believe that he had lost sight of the line between parody and reality. But now its clear he can turn the character off when he wants to, so its just kind of silly.

Where as Shark Boy is an insane comedy under card guy. The problem just comes when you look at them all together.

[Batman]

He stays in character because TNA doesn't have invisible cameras. Lethal is not on a date with Val that we can magically see, he's on a date with Val and a cameraman along, aware that his date, (or portions of it) will be on the show. So he stays in character.

Other than that... What Lucky said.

[Lucky]

Bah. Kayfabe is gay.

[DevSop]

Kayfabe's a girl...you should know this.

And again, I really hate not having time this week. Hopefully I can come back and explain these votes, but for now.

1) Joe
2) Saed
3) Angle
4t) Cage
4t) AJ
6) Briscoes

HM: Roxxie, Kevin Steen, Machine Guns (top 3 next week), Storm, Morgan, Frank Trigg (added a lot for me to the main event), Jacobs & BJ (supposedly put on an awesome NRBW match)

[psmitty]

Well once again I didn't catch Impact this week, but I did manage to download the previous week's which provided me a little bit of background as I managed to catch lockdown this week, so for the first time I'm gonna factor in some TNA love in my voting.

1. Samoa Joe
Without a doubt the most important match of the week, and while it was good (and it was very good) as several have pointed out it wasn't the best match, but the shee importance of the win catapulted Joe to the number one spot easily.

2. Kaz
I'm not a normal TNA guy so I have very little idea of who the hell this guy was but in his match at Lockdown he made me a fan. I caught myself repeatedly changing my pants as he repeatedly caused me to fill them.

3. Kurt Angle
Great match, great to see the Kurtster do the job.

4. Raesha Saeed
I don't know if I dig the ring attire and unlike most other people here I have no clue who cheerleader Melissa is, but I had nightmares that night about a tough chick in a burkka. Nuff said.

5. Super Eric
For the lighter side of things this had great entertainment value.

6. Gail Kim
Someone else who really impressed me in their match at Lockdown, she and Raesha really tore the place down and for a women's match that was pretty cool.

[Lucky]

You know, Super Eric and Kaz were a tag team in that match. So if you want you can easily rank them both 2nd and slip another person on your list. Or you can stick with that if you don't have a 7th or think Kaz really should deserve that much more resignation than eric or that Saeed and Angle shouldn't basically fall behind him. Your call, just pointing it out.

[creepy]

Real quick:

1 Joe
2 HBK
3 Jericho
4 Mizz/Morrison
5 Curryman
6 Orton?

[psmitty]

Thanks for that - I had forgotten that we could place teams together, but I'm comfortable with listing them separately. They're on the list for the same match but very different reasons.

[Mr. Dashbee]

Apr 16, 2008 16:59:00 GMT -5 psmitty said:

Thanks for that - I had forgotten that we could place teams together, but I'm comfortable with listing them separately. They're on the list for the same match but very different reasons.

I totally understand and respect your rationale.

But with them being considered as a team for the week's rankings, I'll end up giving the team the 2nd place and bumping your 5th place person to 6th.

Choice is yours - you can leave 6th place vacant or rank someone else 6th.

[Batman]

Let me give you the perspective on this from the point of view of cumulative scoring. I agree with G-B that if more than one member of a team is individually ranked on a ballot only the highest of them--not the sum--can go to the team as a whole. But I also keep track of the individuals on a team, even if I'm not ranking them as individuals right now, so if I start ranking them as individuals later--if the team breaks up--I already have a running total for their cumulative ranking.

So if you rank Eric and Kaz 2nd as a team, the team would get 5 points and Eric and Kaz would each get 2.5 points. But if you rank it like you are now, the team would get 5 points, Kaz would get 5 points and Eric would get 2.

But keep in mind that 5 points for Kaz would only have a small effect on the Cumulative Rankings maybe someday if I happen to decide to start ranking Kaz and Eric seperately.

Put it this way--you don't need to change your ballot, but you aren't maximizing the effect of your points the way you have it now.

I'm sure that was clear as mud. Let me know.

[Batman]

Apr 16, 2008 16:55:45 GMT -5 creepy said:

Real quick:

1 Joe
2 HBK
3 Jericho
4 Mizz/Morrison
5 Curryman
6 Orton?

Say Creepy, you didn't happen to forget that last week's Raw is under consideration did you? The most recent Raw will be in Week 3.

'Cause Orton had a great match this week (though I'd give more of the credit to Regal) and last week he didn't do shit that was interesting as far as I recall....

[Lucky]

See, as long as he made clear that he regards his Kaz and EY votes as separate I consider them seperate. Their team gets nothing for me, just as I don't add pts to "AJ & Tomko" when AJ Styles individually racks them up. They're his, not theirs.

Different approaches though. Guess are books differ.

[Deadly]

Apr 16, 2008 21:13:53 GMT -5 Lucky said:

See, as long as he made clear that he regards his Kaz and EY votes as separate I consider them seperate. Their team gets nothing for me, just as I don't add pts to "AJ & Tomko" when AJ Styles individually racks them up. They're his, not theirs.

That's the way I rank them. Kaz gets points from me, but I don't want to give Super Eric points.

[DevSop]

Fuck Super Eric...I hate him.

[Batman]

For teams that sometimes get individual votes and sometimes get team votes, I have two different team listings one "Eric & Kaz" and one "Eric / Kaz," "/" being my shorthand for "and/or."

For "Eric & Kaz" I would only count votes for the team as a whole, for "Eric / Kaz" I count votes for either individual and votes for the team. Unless someone votes for both individuals on the same ballot, like psmitty did, in which case the "and/or" team just gets the higher of the two. So unless he changes it, Kaz gets 5, Eric gets 2, Eric / Kaz gets 5, and Eric & Kaz gets 0.

But only one of those options gets ranked in a given week. This week it's Eric / Kaz, because they received team votes and individual votes.

But, for example, Tomko didn't get any votes this week, so in the weekly ranking AJ will be ranked as an individual, but in the cumulative rankings, AJ / Tomko will be ranked, so that votes from previous weeks for the team can count towards their total.

[Mr. Dashbee]

And that's why I like having Sergei around. I do what's best for the current week, and he adjusts it later to do what's best for the historical. It makes no sense to have rankings for "Kaz & Super Eric," "Kaz," and "Super Eric" as three different entities in one given week. But it makes total sense to track it separately for the cumulative & historical effects.

So while I recognize you appreciated one guy way more than the other, the guy you appreciated less does get some extra unintended benefit in the current week. But he loses some of that in the historical.

That said...VOTING CLOSED! Results coming shortly...