Except the Yankees are working in a system in which every team, theoretically, has the same chances the Yankees have while in any college sport, the admission requirements differ so much from school to school that it really isn't an equal playing field. I don't want to get in on Florida since I know we have some fans of theirs from here, but it is far far easier to get into a Florida or a Michigan or whatever than it is to get into a Notre Dame, a Duke and so on and so forth.
It's an uneven playing field from the start, and only gets more unequal as the easier schools do better and therefore look better to the athletes. Pro sports have the benefit of a draft where the lower end of the teams have a chance to restock. College can recruit the best of the best without letting teams like Colorado State, Florida Atlantic, etc recruit the same caliber.
Exactly. And MLB is NOT designed to keep the Yanks rich. In fact its basically designed to hurt them. Luxury tax, revenue sharing, even merchandising, arbitration, free agent compensation. They're all things designed to limit spend and give help to those unable to compete with the Yanks and others in bigger markets. If you left the Yanks well enough alone they'd make a LOT more money and be able to spend a LOT more. If you instituted a cap but gave them back that revenue sharing, luxury tax, and merchandising NY would just get increasingly richer year after year while still able to spend more than most everyone. The only difference is you would have instituted an artificial cap on them that tells them to put the money in their own pockets. And then the Yanks would probably start spending some of that money on international signing and prospects with sign ability issues like they already have.
But NCAA football? The rules are basically designed to favor certain colleges and hold others down. I never even considered the recruiting thing Dev brought up. I just think of the complete inability to recruit players if you're not a big school and the clear bias the polls and Bowl Series have for certain schools. There's no bias in baseball. There's no subjectivity. The Yanks may have more resources than everyone else but they still need to outperform their rivals to be rewarded.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Post by Jack Quinn on Aug 12, 2007 22:06:02 GMT -5
luckylopez said:
The Yanks may have more resources than everyone else but they still need to outperform their rivals to be rewarded.
True, they need to outperform their rivals, but having the extra abundance of resources almost guarantees that they can get the players to do that. There is an inherent flaw in the system that is no fault of the Yankees, but there is also no question that they use that to their advantage to gain an upper hand on the competition. Baseball may not favor the Yankees, but by not making any attempt at instituting a cap and a more level playing field, they are also not discouraging it either.
Unless you consider forcing the Yankees to pay the luxury tax an attempt to discourage them. Which I really don't think it is. I think that was more something like "good god, if you are going to spend 4 times the roster of some teams, we have to make it look like we are punishing you." Kind of thing.
The Phillies are everything I hoped the Mets would be - a team that plays their fucking asses off for all 27 outs. They're never out of a game. Solly 10/20/09
You're completely unreasonable to say that MLB isn't doing anything to discourage the Yanks when you ignore luxury tax, revenue sharing, shared merchandising, arbitration, and compensation picks. All designed to limit and discourage spending and keep those who get hurt by free agency still in things. Player wants more than you want to give? Go to arbitration. You lose a player to free agency? Get draft picks. Want to spend more money? Get taxed exponentially. Can't make as much money as the Yankees? We'll give you a cut of their money. Can't merchandise as well? No matter, you'll make the exact same the Yanks do even if they sell 10x more.
You've decided that the salary cap is the ONLY discouragement. And thus you've chosen to ignore the other real things Bud has instituted and why Yankee fans call him "Bolshevik Bud." The Yanks spent $26M on luxury tax last season. That's real money that they couldn't spend on other things and which factor into their decisions. The Yanks paid $26.5 M in revenue sharing, a pure penalty for success and nothing more. Meanwhile the Tigers received $24M to help them beat the Yanks. That's over $50M, half of which NY didn't voluntarily cause but merely had to pay because of their market and success. But MLB doesn't do anything to level the playing field or handicap the Yanks? This doesn't even account for the money NY loses and gives other teams for merchandising. I can't find the numbers but in the past the Yanks have made up for more than 1/2 of the total merchandising revenue in MLB while only receiving 1/30th of it.
Not to mention the draft picks the Yanks lose when signing free agents.
The particular discouragement you don't want isn't in place. And for that reason you've chosen to ignore how much money MLB has taxxed and taken from the Yankees to increase parity. That's simply unfair and its why these arguments are useless. Because your side refuses to acknowledge this fact.
But that's not the point. You can't compare MLB to NCAA Football. When MLB starts preranking the Yankees 1st, gives the Yankees preference over equally or more successful teams, and decides who makes the World Series based on these polls. Then we can compare. And then you'll explain to me how an open market compares to the college admission and recruiting scene. NCAA football, as a fair institution and equal battle of opponents, looks like a complete and utter joke to me at least.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Post by Attitude Adjuster on Aug 12, 2007 22:46:42 GMT -5
College football No. 1. NFL: Hack, pattuy! Cameraman, zoom in on bas!
BTW, I'm a Redskins fan.
Sting is the dumbest man in wrestling. That's a well established fact. I'd personally find it offensive and out of character if Sting didn't volunteer to do the stupid thing. --Lucky Lopez
Post by Jack Quinn on Aug 12, 2007 22:51:52 GMT -5
Lucky, you say all these things are discouragements, but has any of it discouraged the Yankees in any way whatsoever? We can sit and debate the fairness of it all, but in the end, it hasn't stopped the Yankees from spending nearly 200 million, so it isn't much of a discouragement.
I am not disagreeing with your assessment of college football at all, the preseason rankings are a joke and should be abolished, and the BCS is just as big a joke. But in a way, much like baseball, college football is driven by popularity. That is why we see the major schools on tv all the time, which helps their recruiting, which gets them more money, which means better facilities, which helps recruiting, etc. etc. etc. Meanwhile, most of us can't name more than 2 teams in the WAC.
Same with baseball, to an extent. The Yankees are popular, so they are on TV all the time, which brings in casual viewers, and makes them more popular, which makes them more money, etc. etc. etc. It's not as bad as college football, but the Yankees benefit from their stature in the game just like Michigan and Notre Dame
The Phillies are everything I hoped the Mets would be - a team that plays their fucking asses off for all 27 outs. They're never out of a game. Solly 10/20/09
How should I know if its discouraged the Yanks? I'm not in on the inner meetings. I don't know if decisions have been made based on these things. A couple of years ago it was largely rumored that the Yankees decided that they could only afford to sign Randy Johnson or Carlos Beltran. This past offseason it was often spun that Igawa was acquired at least in part because while a pitcher like Ted Lilly may have cost the same basic amount Igawa did in total cost, the lower payroll of Igawa's would impact the luxury tax less. The Yanks have made are clearly making an effort to fill more of the team with young, cost controlled players rather than add pricey veterans such as Barry Zito or Eric Gagne. So there's sure evidence to suggest it may have affected their behavior. But who knows other than them?
You can NOT expect things to change over night. The penalties on the Yankees have exponentially increased. With each year they spend over the Luxury cap their tax increases. Cashman has publicly stated a desire to decrease his payroll. He even did this season. But he also obviously wishes to compete. I tried to argue this last week and we seemed to get nowhere so I'll use an analogy.
Moose comes into work at the sprocket factory and is called into his boss' office. Boss: Moose, we've gone over the numbers. Due to the new federal taxes and penalties we feel that the spending we have done on our sprocket production is no longer financially beneficial. Along with the ever increasing costs the penalties and taxes have helped our competitors improve in the market. As a result we wish to decrease this spending while maintaining the high quality and sales of our sprockets. Now, we considered just lowering our production costs all at once, but we have many contracts still locked in and this will surely decrease the quality of our sprockets and hurt our sales. And it threatens to damage our reputation and loosen our hold on the market. Thus we've decided to continue to spend in the short term at a possible loss but set the stage for decreased spending in the long term. Hopefully this short term loss will lead to long term profit and the quality of our sprockets and sales need never be hurt. Agree?
But it really doesn't matter because what you're basically saying is that murder laws are worthless if one murderer commits the act despite the penalties he faces.
I sure as hell KNOW the Yanks have been penalized for their success. But the $50M lost in one year is meaningless? And that complete rape job on the merchandising? All in the name of parity? But there's no cap so this is all meaningless, right? This is as always a useless debate because you seem to have decided that there is one solution and one solution only. And because you have decided that if you can't immediately recognize the tangible affect these rules have had on the Yankees they are failures. Never mind that parity is up, overall revenue is up, small market teams are regularly spending more and signing their stars, and most economists have identified a CLEAR change in baseball thanks to revenue sharing.
I'm not even debating fairness. I think parity is a good thing and I'm willing to let the Yankees get fucked up the ass and robbed blind to finance less profitable teams, many of whom have no interest in spending that money to compete. But how about we call a spade a spade. The Yankees ARE being fucked up the ass and robbed blind to help YOUR teams get even with them. So how about we stop pretending otherwise and acknowledge the actual facts?
Same with baseball, to an extent. The Yankees are popular, so they are on TV all the time, which brings in casual viewers, and makes them more popular, which makes them more money, etc. etc. etc. It's not as bad as college football, but the Yankees benefit from their stature in the g@me just like Michigan and Notre Dame
How can I say this clearly? You are wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. I've explained why dozens of times. I just explained why 1 post ago. So I ask you. How do the Yanks profit more than MLB by their increased exposure and popularity? Merchandising? Market revenue? Revenue? Because all of these things are either strictly enforced and limited or taxed exponentially to be redistributed through out MLB. So I ask you to please validate your claim. Are Michigan or Notre Dame penalized in any of these same ways? And does the NCAA go out of its way to increase and maintain their exposure while keeping other schools away from the limelight? Does MLB do the same thing?
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Lucky, for one, I never said it was fair what baseball was doing to the Yankees. Its not. But it is also not fair to have the Yankees spending 200 million while other teams can only afford 30 million. So they are penalized because they decided to spend. That simple really. They knew they were going to get penalized, and they decided to spend anyway, thus, on the surface at least, it sure doesn't seem like much of a deterrent. Now, perhaps it is slowly causing a change in the Yankees thinking, maybe in 10 years we will see the Yankees come back to the rest of the pack and only spend 130-150 million (only, HA), but right now, it certainly doesn't seem like it.
I'll give you the popularity thing, to a degree. Don't the Yankees profit completely from their tv deal, or is that divided as well? The more the Yankees are on, the more people will watch on whatever their channel is called, the more viewers they have, the more the channel would likely expand, no? I don't know if it has, or will, be available outside of NY, but I would imagine of all the "regional" channels that is most likely to become the next TBS or WGN type channel, available all over the place. Anyway, fine, I will concede that MLB has prevented the Yankees from raking in a billion dollars a year on their stupid hats. But in the end, fuck the Yankees anyway. They decided to jump payroll to astronomical heights to buy a WS every year (which humorously has not worked out for them) so they get what they deserve. We will never agree on this, but we should probably stop hijacking this thread and get back to college football.
The Phillies are everything I hoped the Mets would be - a team that plays their fucking asses off for all 27 outs. They're never out of a game. Solly 10/20/09
Technically this thread wasn't about college football either.
They take in the full revenue for their TV. Well, technically YES does, but YES and the Yankees are at this moment basically the same people so until YES is sold we can say the Yanks get it. But the channel can't expand past the MLB enforced limits. I don't even know how TBS pulls it off and I'm trying to figure it out, but the Yankees are now allowed to invade the Philly or Detroit markets. They are reserved for the Phillies and Tigers and MLB is pretty serious about that stuff. The only way the Yankees can make more on their TV is by (a) increasing ad revenue, (b) getting it on more cable/satelite companies in the NY area if they're not already fully covered, which I believe they are, or (c) getting the cable/satelite companies to charge extra for the channel and getting a boost there. YES already makes a crazy profit because they negotiated being left on a cable package with channels like the Family Channel and the Food Network. Cablevision wanted to make them subscription based or put them on a Sports package but that would have limited the number of people who get YES. This way whenever someone buys that package for the Cartoon Network or Food Network YES still gets a cut of their fees.
I never argued that it was unfair so it should stop. It is unfair but I'm ok with it. Because its having an impact. You're ignoring the impact all together. I mean, think of it logically. $25M on luxury tax is $25M less you can spend on the payroll. And the Yankees reported total losses last season. You make it sound like $25M is meaningless. That the extra $25M for revenue sharing is meaningless. That the millions they lose in merchandising is meaningless. Its not SLOWLY causing a change. Its causing a change right now if you look for it. If you read the Johnson/Beltran rumors and listen to what Cashman says. But because the Yanks can't just wipe the payroll clean and want to keep competing they'll continue to have high payrolls even IF they're trying to lower them. And from past conversations your solution would be for the Yanks to just stop adding contract all together and actively choose to suck, but that's stupid and potentially damaging to the club. So its not going to happen. In the next 2 years Pettitte, Mussina, Clemens, Giambi, Posada, Abreu, Mariano, Farnsworth, Pavano, Damon, and Matsui all come off the books. Some will be re-signed and some will be replaced by other expensive players. But that's a ton of money the Yanks have seemed to set out to lose and which should see a major change in payroll.
And if the payroll is $180M next year I'm sure you'll continue to ignore the very clear change taking place.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.
Post by The Jewish Cunthead on Aug 13, 2007 16:07:05 GMT -5
I love how this became another anti-Yankees rant. I totally believe the current system is designed to help the smaller market teams, if and that's the key word, IF they want it. I don't feel like re-hashing all the other points about smaller clubs deciding not to spend on whatever revenue they get from the Yanks, Mets or Sox but I will touch upon the Beltran point. It's a fact he wanted to play for the Yanks, to play with his idol Bernie and was willing to give the Yanks a discount to do so. Boras was on the phone all day right before Beltran spurned the Astros and took Omar's money. Boras was willing to take a 6-year $100M deal from Cashman right then and there, a sharp cry from the eventual 7-year, $119M contract he got from the Mets. My point, aside from Beltran being a complete fucking greedy bastard who didn't want to play for the Mets in the first place and wound up proving he isn't a NY-type of player and why God why didn't he swing at that curve, is the current luxury tax system prevented the Yanks from adding another superstar. That $100M contract would have been $125M or something like that when you figure in all the taxes so the Yanks said no. It's not to say they still don't take chances, Johnson's extension, Pavano, Igawa, etc. but all in all the system has been shown to work if the owners choose to use it to its fullest extent.
"You were part Canadian as soon as your dick took up permanent residence in Moosejaw." - Hoodge
"and 29 Fingers, what the fuck is that shit? Who wrote a song about your anal world record set at the Stuckeys just outside of San Diego?" - Moose
"But yeah, I'd rather stick my dick in a dead guys asshole then watch Anchorman again." - Creeps
As for your little college football debate. The northeast isn't into college football because they have shitty teams. Period. Look at what happened last year with Rutgers.
As for your the rich get richer thing...very true...except there are 6 BCS conferences with about 12 teams per conference. So that means the rules are set up to help 72 teams, not just a handful.
But I would ask anyone that's not a college football fan to make a trip to one of these places and tell me you didn't get into the game/atmosphere more than you could imagine...Knoxville, Gainesville, Baton Rouge, Oxford. Those are the big four. IF you go anywhere, those are the ones you must go to first.
Post by National Champion Chris Cole on Aug 14, 2007 8:29:38 GMT -5
The rules aren't set up to favor the big schools is basketball and yet the big schools still end up winning. Why? Because that is where the good talent wants to play. I think the BCS is actually MORE helpful to small schools now. Boise may not have played for a title but before the BCS they are playing in the Nothing Bowl against Crappy University. Instead they played Oklahoma in ther Fiesta Bowl and become overnight sensations. Yes the system is flawed. Yes a playoff would be preferable (though I still say a small playoff. We don't need 3-4 loss teams winning titles). But college football is 100x better now then it was before the BCS. And with the constant media and fan pressure I really do think we will get a Plus One or Final Four type method coming in the next decade.
To sum up my feeling on the College vs Pro debate:
If you went to a big time Football school like Florida, Tennesse, Georgia, USC, Michigan, etc. then your feeling are most likely College > Pro. You've LIVED the game and emotion and you feel like a part of the team.
If you didn't go to college or went to a school without a major program then you most likely don't get the appeal of college and you favor Pro.
I once liked the Pro Game better. Then I went to the University of Florida and experienced the excitement first hand.
But I would ask anyone that's not a college football fan to make a trip to one of these places and tell me you didn't get into the game/atmosphere more than you could imagine...Knoxville, Gainesville, Baton Rouge, Oxford. Those are the big four. IF you go anywhere, those are the ones you must go to first.
Quoted for truth - well the first part anyway. This is especially true in a college rivalry situation - the atmosphere is electrifying, much more so than when NFL rivals go head to head. Tennessee/Florida. Auburn/Alabama. USC/UCLA. Texas/Oklahoma. Hell - even Stanford/Cal. I'm not saying the stadiums and overall environment aren't intense for rival NFL matchups. But there's something about college football that just makes it amazing.
The big 4 that GoVols quotes are wrong, though. Please just accept that I am right.
Post by The Canadian Content on Aug 14, 2007 8:38:51 GMT -5
For me, it boils down to this:
College players are all trying to get into the NFL. So are CFL players, NFL Europe players, Arena League players...everyone who's playing football who isn't playing in the NFL would rather be playing in the NFL.
It's the elite league. The best of the best play there.
The same can be said for every other pro sport. There's no kid anywhere whose ultimate dream is to play in the NCAA or minor league baseball. No kid wants to be Reggie Bush five years ago.
If I'm going to devote time and energy to a sport, I want only the best players, coaches, and officials on my side. I want to see the absolute best in the game at every position.
Post by National Champion Chris Cole on Aug 14, 2007 8:55:54 GMT -5
And that argument is acceptable. No denying it is the best of the best. That is why I ALSO watch NFL. I love football. I love that I can watch exciting games on Saturday and Sunday. They both offer the same product (or close enough) but with slightly different twists. I can lose myself in the pagentry opf college and still be awed by the skill level of the NFL.
Honestly I think the College vs Pro debate is kind of dumb. I prefer college but not by much. I just enjoy the sport of football.
Post by Jack Quinn on Aug 14, 2007 11:40:06 GMT -5
I am not sure I agree with the NLF Superiority argument completely. Sure, they may be the best of the best, but the money they make makes a lot of them really complacent. In college these kids are hungry to get to that next level, and it shows on the field. A college kid knows a bad game or two and he may not be drafted, a pro can have a couple of bad games and he is still going to collect a fat check.
The Phillies are everything I hoped the Mets would be - a team that plays their fucking asses off for all 27 outs. They're never out of a game. Solly 10/20/09
Post by The Canadian Content on Aug 14, 2007 12:17:35 GMT -5
mooseheadjack said:
I am not sure I agree with the NLF Superiority argument completely. Sure, they may be the best of the best, but the money they make makes a lot of them really complacent. In college these kids are hungry to get to that next level, and it shows on the field. A college kid knows a bad g@me or two and he may not be drafted, a pro can have a couple of bad g@mes and he is still going to collect a fat check.
I understand that argument, Moose, but the fact remains that there are thousands of college players, and their talent level for the most part is nowhere near the level of the hundreds of NFL players.
When I said the big 4, I meant the complete package...Friday night before the game, tailgating, crazy fun traditions like the Vol Navy or the Grove, and then the actual game experience. Oxford only makes the list because of the tremendous talent that you see there that don't see anywhere else. I'm not discounting places like Texas or Michigan (although I did go to an Ohio St. game once and it sucked).
I'll give you a little rundown of Knoxville on a game weekend...I'd like to hear other peoples experiences, too.
Friday Night: The strip is right next to the campus. There's about 30 bars all within a 10 minute walk of the stadium. Everyone has live music. The gas stations rent out their parking spaces to RV's. There are literally tens of thousands of people partying within about a mile and a half radius. On the other side of the strip is the Fort, basically all the students who live off-campus live there. There are hundreds of parties. Again, all of this is happening right next to campus and close to the stadium.
Saturday morning: If it's a 230 game, the festivities start around 930 or so. The lots around the stadium are packed, but mostly just in setup mode. By 11, it's on. 105,000 people descend on the campus, 95% dressed in the best pale orange. Every few cars has a big screen with a satellite to watch Gameday and the early games. About 1230 or so the VolWalk starts. The whole team is dressed in suits and walks from the players dorm to the stadium walking through the tailgates. Their route includes a short trip down the street named Peyton Manning Pass. Very clever. All the while the Tennessee River, which is right next to the stadium, is filling up with boat after boat decked out in orange. Thousands of people come to the game this way. This is the Vol Navy. Not to mention that Knoxville has some ridiculously hot girls. Makes the day that much better.
Gametime: You've all seen the running through the T before the game, but in person it is one of the coolest things you'll ever see. So much so that Florida has started running through an F...faggots. Most people agree that Neyland Stadium is the loudest in the country along with Tiger stadium in Baton Rouge and the Swamp.
After the game: I'll be the first to admit that if the Vols lose, the city is pretty dead. But if they win, every bar has a line and the party from Friday night continues.
I've only been to a few other stadiums for games, but Knoxville is far and away the best I've seen for a total weekend experience. My main reason for that is that at most places if you're not a student it's hard to find stuff to do. In Knoxville you're right in the middle of it all, whether you're a student or just a fan. The people are pretty nice to visiting fans as well. Just don't be a dick about your team and you'll be welcomed in to the party.
Maybe I'll start a new thread for this and we can compare some experiences and stories and maybe get those non-college fans into it.
I know I sound like a college freak, but I love the NFL too. It's definitely not as fun to go to an NFL game, but watching it is great. And I do love going to Browns games. Lots of fun for a few hours before the game, though, not a whole weekend experience.
Oh, I said right away that my impression is that when you're in one of those worlds you're probably having so much damn fun that it becomes easy to ignore the flaws in the sport and embrace the good. But in the northeast, as you said, we don't have this culture or any teams to build this culture around. The closest thing is ND fandom. So we never get that excited party world and the flaws become easier to spot. I do think that if I spend a season in Michigan or Oklahoma that I will probably get into it and see the fun.
But then again I've been told the EXACT same thing about Nascar. That if you go to a rally its so much fucking fun you just get sucked in. And even to a lesser extent the Triple Crown horse racing events. So what does that say?
We're not into it because we have no reason to be. No big schools and no culture. And then we have a perfectly great pro version of the game and we see the diehard NCAA fans bitching about their sport and the BCS every week. And then ESPN shows one of their "5 black coaches out of 183 schools" stats. And there's just not a lot drawing you into developing a love for the sport. Adding a playoff system would probably immediately boost NCAA football's importance in the NE insanely.
Or don't do either. If you can't find an image you like at either than don't force it. Just give me something you like and which will look good on the board.