[Stu]

www.fmqinc.com/terminator-cancelled/

Dawwww...Anyway, that was a rather "woah" episode last night for me.

Was really shocked at how they killed Derek like that, out of the blue with no build up. I was like:
"Must have hit him in the chest and he's wearing a vest, playing dead"
then when I saw the head wound initially:
"Maybe it only nicked him, and it looks worse from this angle than it is"
then
"Must be another dream/nightmare opening, right? RIGHT????"

Anyone else thinking now that Weaver's actually "good"? That she's trying to replace skynet with a more docile AI to prevent the war? There seemed to be a few clues suggesting it, with her saying to Ellison she believes John Henry might be vital to his survival one day. Also her eel "eats other eels", possibly an analogy for her. And thinking back, when she destroyed that top secret research place, we figured it was a coverup, but it could simply have been direct sabotage. She's not shown any interest in finding John or Sarah, and even initially had no interest in meeting her (if she prevents the war, they aren't a threat to her). And as a machine, she's obviously pragmatic enough to "sacrifice" all the people she's been killing for the greater good, just like Cameron keeps wanting to do. So John's possibly going to destroy John Henry and inadverdantly pave the way for Skynet?

[OpTard]

fucking blows that it's canceled. it's an awesome show. last night's episode was fantastic.

the shitty thing is that next week's episode is definitely not gonna have the answers we want. this like the canceling of life on mars where they told the show they were being canceled and gave them the chance to end the show. my only hope is the writers saw the writing on the wall just as the entire rest of the world did and wrote a decent ending. the killing of derrek (which was fucking crazy. WOW) sorta gives me hope on that front. they coulda just killed him cuz he made other commitments, or maybe he made other commitments because they killed him. and maybe they killed him because they were gearing up for what they knew, even if they weren't being told, would be the show finale.

the cancellation blows, but i'm happy to have the series in the terminator collection and look forward to giving it multiple viewings.

[Stu]

I dunno if they knew it was coming, because it's felt like there's been lots of filler in season 2. Not to say it's BAD filler, but when they ended one episode with a Hunter Killer drone flying out of the ground, only to go the rest of the season without even mentioning it again, it was definitely a bit of a letdown for me. Though it is kinda unexpected how a Terminator production with more talking than action could be so enjoyable.

That rendition of "Donald Where's Your Troosers?" was surprisingly effective, even if they pronounced it "trousers" unnecessarily.

[OpTard]

i guess it comes down to production schedule. all that "filler" could've easily been filmed before they even knew they were moving to fridays. who knows. the killing of derrek just reeks of "yeah, we know they aint coming back" to me.

[Stu]

Anyone else hoping that the finale ends with Chris Hansen showing up to question John Henry on what he's doing chatting to a young girl over the internet and singing songs about not wearing trousers?

[Stu]

They can't cancel after that! That was so good!
-John Henry-NEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!
-creepy feel-copping session!
-prison breakout!
-HKamikaze!
-protective blanket Weaver!
-Derek's alive
-possible human who Cameron impersonated!

[BC]

Agreed but if that truly is the end, I'll take it. This completely diverges from the Terminator lore as now John Connor doesn't lead the resistance since he skipped over Judgement Day.

I would love seeing Summer Glau play a normal woman, or as normal as Allison could be in post Judgement Day. Also the John Henry/Cromartie/Cameron terminator could be a trip.

[OpTard]

man. they really need to find a way to make money off of other types of viewing aside live television. what do they say, the show has like 3 times as many viewers as what the ratings say when you count DVRs and online viewing? something along those lines.

here's what i don't get about these things having such a bit effect on ratings...

not all viewers count towards ratings. people VOLUNTEER to be part of the process. they choose to have either a neilson box or keep a neilson diary. why kind of person would volunteer for that process and then go out of their way to watch shows by means that don't count? if i agreed to have a neilson box, i would watch live TV because i'd be getting that box to let the people know what i watch.

i'm sure they can get some information to adjust numbers to account for DVR and online viewing by doing some random polling, but i'm pretty sure the majority of their information comes from boxes and diaries, so it really shouldn't change that much.

aside from that rant, i loved the episode. john henry had me cracking up the entire show. i was also happy that for the first time in 2 seasons THEY FINALLY SAID THE WORD TERMINATOR!

i pray for a miracle that it somehow makes it back, but i know better. oh well.

[Stu]

I did laugh at Weaver a lot more in this episode
"I liked that gate"
"Watch who you're calling a bitch"
I found it funny too how because Weaver's scottish her daughter's kidnapping was deemed an international incident.
"We can't risk to strain our relationship with Scotland! We depend on shortbread and whiskey trade arrangements with them!"

[BC]

I have to say I've been impressed with Shirley Manson. I'm a huge Garbage fan so I was excited to see her get casted, but I had reservations about her acting ability if any. Granted, playing an unemotional cyborg isn't that hard, but she made it her own with her own style and was one of the better characters. Brava Shirley, brava.

[DevSop]

I'm really hoping Fox (yes, I know Fox) takes into account DVR viewing and DVD sales and maybe it's time for networks to start really considering the cable schedule. Less episodes, more time off in between seasons, cheaper overall production costs. In Fox's case, both Dollhouse and SCC have loyal, if not major fanbases, give em 13 episodes a season, run them in a row, and then let the dvd sales carry the cost.

I don't think SCC or Dollhouse could come back for anything more than 13 episodes a season, but I truly think a network needs to really start considering that type of schedule. Especially when it comes to serial-dramas. If it was a procedural like House, 22 episodes a year work because you can miss a week and it isn't a big deal. But with shows like this, once you miss a week, it's tough to get back into watching them.

Supposedly because of Leno taking over the 10PM slot on NBC, they're very likely considering the shortened season approach next year. I hope Fox follows suit, even if it's just for this show.

[Lucky]

DVD sales are one thing but does it really make sense for Fox or anyone else to consider DVR viewings? No one watches the commercials when they have it on DVR. So realistically a network can't sell DVR viewing numbers to advertisers unless they're brain dead.

Now, DVD sales are different. But that probably comes down to a question of whether the DVD sales are actually worth the production cost and the hit to advertising. Sure, HBO does well with it but HBO's also a subscription based channel who charges as much as twice the amount of most DVDs. Sell Dollhouse S1 for $60 and see how many copies you sell beyond the absolutely hardcore Whedon minority. Lets remember, HBO sells critically acclaimed GREAT TV. Then networks are rarely cutting off shows getting that high a regard. Fox dragged out Arrested Development's life solely because of that reason. Usually these are just shows with strong but small cult followings. And you can only bleed a cult following dry so much. At this stage the HBO name alone sells a somewhat mediocre show like True Blood because people go in hoping they're seeing the next Sopranos, Wire, Deadwood, or Entourage.

[OpTard]

there are alot of things networks can do to make shows that aren't watched on live TV more profitable.

1. don't put a show aimed at 18-35 year olds on friday nights, you dumb fucks. then maybe more people WILL watch it on live TV.

2. put full commercial breaks on your online broadcasts. why are networks even putting the shows online if watching it there is a mark against it? don't just have one 30 sec. commercial in your breaks. have full breaks and make it the same commercials that air on the live broadcast. and online, while you can rewind and fast forward the show, you CAN'T skip the commercials. this way, if you have 3 million extra people watching online, those 3 million extra people COUNT.

3. shorter seasons aren't a bad idea. if nothing else it tightens up the storytelling so there's less meandering in the season. lost took that approach by dropping to 16 ep seasons. and the 13 episode season 1 of SCC definitely felt more focused than the 22 ep season 2 (not that i didn't like it. still one of my favorite shows of the season, but the extra time to fill was definitely felt). it's lower overall production cost. yes, also lower ad revenue, but it's the same DVD sales. and networks have shown they have no problem charging the same for a 13 ep season set as they do for a 22 ep season set. you don't have to charge HBO money for the set to make money on it. dvds DO sell. it's a major part of business now. it's something networks need to look closer at.

4. maybe it's time for more shows to start looking at the futurama model. i don't think i can work for everyone, but no way it ONLY works for futurama. futurama released "season 5" of its show as 4 direct-to-dvd movies. each movie equals 4 episodes as far as syndication is concerned. i (happily) bought all for movies. do you know what that means? i essentially paid 80 bucks for a 16 episode season of futurama. fox could produce four 2 hour and 15 minute (the equivlent of 3 episodes) movies and release for a nice 12 episode direct-to-dvd season. and they could sell each movie at $20 a pop. futurama show it works. now it's just a matter of finding out who else it works for.

[Lucky]

In fairness, does the Fox network really have anything that fits Friday nights better? Its not like they have their Tuesday nights themed to old folks which they could switch around to make fit better. As a whole the network targets 18-35-year-olds so something's going to end up in that death slot. And as much as sci-fi fans understandably bitch about it I can't say that I think "Throw the nerd shows on Friday because the nerds will follow them and watch anyway" is the worst idea when trying to decide whether to throw House, American Idol, Prison Break, or Sarah Conner on Friday night.

And if nothing else I saw quite a few nerds express that the scheduling for Dollhouse was the exact reason they stuck with it the first few weeks. Because Fox managed to slide it in between Sarah Conner and Battlestar Gallactica so it just made sense to give the sci-fi show on between the good sci-fi shows a chance. Because there was nothing else to watch for that hour anyway.

Completely agreed on the commercials online and shorter seasons, though. Shorter seasons are annoying when you're going good but HBO and USA have shown me that they make for much tighter storytelling and more anticipation for new episodes. And as much as I don't want to watch those commercials online I always wonder why they let me off with 1 30 second spot when realistically, if I went online to watch the show then I'm probably out of options and I'm gonna sit through your commercials.

Just don't be a dick and set it up so I have to click a button after every commercial break. Makes it a real bitch to go to fullscreen and sit back and watch from a comfy seat.

The movie thing I don't know I buy into as much just because I would NOT spend $80 to see one shortened season of a show I like. And that's exactly how I would view it. But maybe with niche shows like Futurama there's enough people who would that its worth doing. Who knows? But I would assume production costs for Futurama are much lower than costs for a regular show.

[OpTard]

it is $80 for a season. it's weird. you don't think about it when you're buying a movie for $20, but really what you're doing is buying a 16 episode season (in futurama's case) for 80 bucks.

but it's a tradeoff. ad revenue subsidizes the production costs of shows making their DVD release able to go $35 for a season. if you as a consumer want to take that out of the equation then you basically have to pay the difference. i was ok with it for futurama (as were alot of people, apparently. i heard those movies did fairly well). i think i would be ok with it for something like SCC.

i don't know if that's true for everyone, but like i said before, the model worked for futurama. it can't possibly ONLY work for futurama.

[OpTard]

oh, and how about you put nothing on friday nights. like every other network. if they kept SCC on mondays i bet it woulda done better.

[DevSop]

I kinda preferred the Friday night slot for SCC and Dollhouse because the expectations are so far low, that Fox basically let the shows exist there without a need for giving them breaks during sweeps or anything. I guarantee that if SCC had been on Mondays or any other day of the week, it would have been cancelled/put on hiatus months ago.

I think if Fox would bring back both shows give them 13 episode commitments again, put them on all of August/September (6-8 weeks), off for October (baseball playoffs) and then back for November/December (4-6 weeks) that's an ideal shortened season scenario for Fox. Then they can launch new shows in Januray/February with the 24/American Idol sping seasons.

[Lucky]

No, of course it WOULD work for some show or another. I just assume Futurama's costs are low so they were able to give it a try. If it failed, no biggie. The costs were minimal. For Sarah Conner to try I assume the budget gets much larger and if the DVDs don't sell they took a pretty large hit.

Aren't you just asking them to throw aside money then? I mean, Friday's there. Of course you want to TRY and make it work. And Fox is in the unique situation of having had long term success on Friday night. Of course that means they've spent a decade trying to replicate it which is a little silly, but its Fox. They're not known for thinking too far outside the box. And with the networks turning to reality TV and now Jay Leno I personally don't want to encourage them to abandon another night of real programming.

Yes, SCC probably would have done better on Monday nights. But all you're basically saying is that something needs to be tossed to Friday or cut from the schedule. And sure, as a Sarah Conner fan you don't want it to be that show. But as a Fox executive is there really a ton of reason to put SCC in a a better position to succeed over Bones or Fringe? Or your genuine successes like House and Prison Break? I mean, you can ignore Friday if you want but then that's just a wasted night and 2-3 hours less of programming you have. That's going to result in the cancellation of some shows anyway, isn't it?

And the other networks don't ignore Friday nights, do they? They just generally try to appeal to, you know... old people and housewives. And Fox just doesn't have that market in its programming. So the answer for them is either to (a) bite the bullet and change their strategy by adding a few different pieces of programming or (b) just keep throwing shit at the wall on Friday and hoping something clicks.

Fox likes throwing shit at the wall. And I'm honestly not sure it hurts them. It just annoys fans who latch onto any of the 500 shows they've thrown on Friday night over the last 15 years or so.

[DevSop]

Let's count them:

Dollhouse, Sarah Connor Chronicles, Prison Break (moved for final season), John Doe, Lone Gunmen, Adventures of Briscoe County, M.A.N.T.I.S., Sliders, Strange Luck, VR.5, Brimstone, Greed, Dark Angel, Firefly, Fastlane, Wonderfalls, Boston Public (final season only), Jonny Zero, Killer Instinct, Justice, Vanished, Wanda at Large, Malcolm in the Middle (final season only), Bernie Mac (final season only), Standoff, Nashville, Cantebury's Law, Jezebel James, and Millenium.


Around 30 shows on Fox since 1992-14 of which were in the sci-fi genre for the most part. Only one of which lasted more than a season after moving to/being placed on Fridays (Sliders).

The one successful show Fox ever put on Fridays was The X-Files. Which was almost cancelled. But shockingly Fox allowed the show a chance to develop, find its audience, and went on to become one of Fox's most popular franchises ever.

Fox sucks. And I didn't even delve into the Thursday night curse.

[Lucky]

Yeah but at some point you ask whether that's Friday's fault or the shows'. I mean, Fastlane sucked. It was a bad show. Briscoe County was a weird show destined for failure. Bernie Mac was on its last legs. A lot of these are just shows that would have died ANYWHERE. And I just named the ones I actually watched. Some of those I've never even heard of (or think are complete dog shit but don't want to offend anyone and sidetrack the conversation).

So again, sci-fi fans get pissed at Fox for throwing their shows there to die. Fine, that's understandable. But what else is Fox to do? Tard's "ignore Friday" solution makes no business sense and pretty much everything else on Fox's schedule would die on Friday as well. There IS a Sci-Fi/Friday audience. Whether that's left over from X-Files or because of Battlestar, or because there is actually a plethora of stereotypical pale faced virgin teens with nowhere to go on Friday night. I don't know? But when you KNOW your show is gunned towards a very specific audience of existing fans... and that your show is very unlikely to pick up a sizeable number of casual viewers without MAJOR word of mouth... then throwing it on Friday makes SOME sense, doesn't it? Sure, SCC or Dollhouse would probably have done at least marginally better on Monday or Tuesday night but neither would do as well as House or 24 and neither would suffer the drop off as them if moved to Friday.

I think the Fox sci-fi on Friday "death slot" thing has become an excuse. Before Dollhouse even started Whedon fans were already complaining that Fox killed a good show because of its time slot. That the show has gotten shitty reviews, that Friday audience has dropped, none of them will ultimately stop Dollhouse fans from blaming Friday for the show's inevitable failure. Not Whedon or the show, its Fox's fault. And sure, there's some shows that ARE Fox's fault. And Whedon has maybe the greatest example of that in Firefly as a show that had horrible and confusing advertising, that was aired out of order, that was moved around, that went on hiatus randomly, and did just about everything you could ask a network not to do. But some of these shows just ended up on Friday because Fox figured they were longshots at best so better to put the shows with better odds on the good nights and not waste a Tuesday night slot on Cantebury's Law. Someone's going to end up on Friday night and odds are it will be the show that the network things won't live somewhere else.

Just so happens Fox makes a LOT of sci-fi crap and tends to shove it onto Friday. We all agree that SCC would have done better on Monday night but would it have done well enough to warrant renewing or to push a different show to Friday night/cancellation? And ultimately nothing short of a complete network overhaul will change Fox's plan or even make it (IMO) logical to make "Sci-Fi Thursday" and leave Bones to die on Friday. Or ditching an hour of American Idol and going for almost guaranteed lower ratings.

[OpTard]

first of all, i can't name a single show that airs friday nights. not one on ABC, NBC, CBS, CW, nothing. ABC used to have TGIF. do they still? i have no idea. i can't name a show. do they air SOMETHING? yes. it's not the old indian head for 3 hours, but what kind of programming is it? it's gotta be filler. this isn't a situation of me just not being interested. i've never once been asked if i watch a show, answered no, then been told "oh it's on friday nights on NBC. you totally gotta check it out." you can't argue that they're just not targeting me and my peers, cuz who are they targeting? they're not targeting my parents. if i were to stop at my parent's house on a friday night, my dad would be watching HBO and my mom would be watching some soap operas she's DVRed. as far as i can tell networks don't even consider fridays when it comes to quality primetime programming. whatever filler bullshit the other networks put on, fox should do the same. and i don't want to hear they can't program for old people. old people watch american idol. throw a commercial or 2 there and the old people will come. but again, my parents are pretty old and i don't see them watching network television on friday night.

and as far as SCC staying on mondays means something would have to be "moved to friday or canceled" that's bullshit. it was on mondays last season (and the first half of this season? i forget when they moved it). so what are they cancelling? what are the moving? it had the spot. they had to FIND something to take its place. what was it? i don't even know. i pretty much only watch NBC on mondays now (mother, bang, heroes). i'm off 24. i haven't watched prison break since mid-season 2. they moved terminator. i have no idea what CBS or ABC even offers.

i'm getting a little off topic here. my main point was that you can't argue that SCC would have had to take something's place to have the monday spot cuz it HAD the monday spot. if it would be getting in the way of the prison break / 24 team up, i get it. that's been going on forever. but they could've solved that by just doing the 13 episode season.

[Stu]

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8056959.stm
:-[

[OpTard]

OMG SUPER SHOCK~!

[Byrntrigan]

and yet Dollhouse gets picked up. Probably a combination of expensive show with lower ratings...

I blame it being moved to be with Dollhouse.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

CBS canceled The Unit.

Grumble grumble.