[Batman]

After a long hiatus, I return to my house of comics. I return not to praise comics, but to bury them. Warning: this post will contain (if I do it right) lethal or near-lethal levels of hatred, bitterness, old-man curmudgeonliness, and curdled nostalgic contempt for everything from after I turned 17 or so. It will also include a pretty major Iron Man 2 spoiler. Turn back now, you've been warned. I just got back from Iron Man 2. I enjoyed the heck out of it, it was a darn fun ride. I almost forgot that there was supposed to be an after-credits scene. But then I remembered and stayed for it. A fun teaser for the whole Avengers thing. The SHIELD agent shows up at a crater site and in the middle, there's Mjolnir. (I warned you.) Pretty cool. Then behind me I hear the voice of approximately a ten-year-old saying "I don't get it." And his dad replies, "that's Thor's hammer, son." Am I the only seeing something incredibly fucked-up and ass-backwards about this? Maybe so. (I've run out of room, to be continued...)

[Batman]

What the fuck has this world come to that the DAD is explaining this to the KID? Should it not be the other way around? Over 20 years ago the comic book industry gradually gave up on any sort of mass youth market and instead for some godforsaken reason switched over to focusing on the niche uber-geek market. And it is slowly killing the hobby I love. Please tell me I'm wrong about this, because I would dearly love to be wrong. Is there a comic book you would recommend for my eight-year-old that might spark a love for this form of storytelling the way that a DOZEN different titles did when I was his age? When I was a teenager, I thought that work like Watchmen, and the Killing Joke, and Dark Knight Returns were the beginning of something, that the comic book medium and the superhero genre were growing up with me. In retrospect I see that it wasn't the beginning of something it was the end, a dead end that both the medium and the genre have been stuck in ever since. Don't get me wrong...

[Batman]

...I'm not saying that there isn't a place for superhero stories for grown-ups. Particularly if the story in question is a work of genius like the three I just mentioned. But this only has the intended effect in-context. That context being a genre aimed primarily at young people--a context that no longer exists. There is no jumping-on point for new fans anymore, and so fandom will continue to gray until the last of us croaks and the art-form dies with us. And the worst is--nobody did this to us. We did it to ourselves. Creators, editorial, publishers, distributors, retailers, fans. We all desperately wanted our hobby to be taken seriously as serious art, so we pushed and pushed the envelope with no thought for where future generations of fans were supposed to start. It boggles me. And we did it to ourselves. I truly loath us.

[salmonjunkie]

I didn't know who Thor was when I was 10. That was 1986. I can't believe you typed all that because of one 10 year old kid. Some kids get into comics a little later, some never do. Deal with it.

[Batman]

One kid did not make me type all of that. He just happened to get me thinking about stuff that's been bothering me for over a decade. Yeah, there have always been kids who aren't into comics, but there used to be a lot of kids who WERE, too. Where are they now, and what in the HELL is there for them to read?

[OpTard]

i got news for you. a 10 year old kid can read MOST comics. thor isn't more complex than when simonson did it. x-men were sleeping with each other back in the 80s too. comics haven't really changed THAT much.

if you're talking 7 year olds, there's all sorts of out of continuity stuff for kids to read that is of a high quality and can get them into the medium. good comics.

the problem isn't the comics, it's getting the comics into the hands of the kids. and that problem isn't the direct market, it's the choices kids have. even when i was a kid i had TV and NES to keep me entertained. i got into comics because a neighbor who was a few years older than me were into them. kids today have quadruple the amount of choices to keep them occupied. quite frankly the whole premise of your argument is flawed.

and just out of curiosity, what are you typing on that you're initial post had to be split into 3?

[Habs]

Why can't you see it the other way. Now maybe the kid will be interested in Thor and read some so that he his ready for the next movie. Than again, probably not, he'll just wait for the movie. But maybe down the line, he will grab a comic book because of the movies and get hooked. I got into comics at around 20. I read watchmen and V just before the movies came out, and those comics were written 20 years ago.
Some kids read comics, other collect cards, some play magic, others PS3, and some play outside. this generation those it differently than ours, and we did it differently than our parents and that's the way it is. it's called evolution (some might think it's going the wrong way, but you get the idea). If it means kids comics are to go the way of the dinosaurs, so be it. But I doubt it will. Kids are still reading comics, maybe not the ones you read, but they still do. Manga, Tintin (he's pushing 75 and still being read), and many others.

[Batman]

Ah, two arguments with one stone. Yes, the kid may have an interest in superheroes sparked by these movies. Dad might say "Yeah, Iron Man and Thor, they're going to form a team with a few others called the Avengers, that's where all of this is headed, but instead of waiting a few years for the Avengers movie, I could get you a copy of the latest Avengers comic right now." Now the nearest comic book store MIGHT be hundreds of miles away, but lets say for argument's sake that it's reachable. They buy a recent issue of the Avengers and Dad's like "OK son, there's Iron Man, and that's Thor, isn't he cool, and that guy I don't know, he's new. He looks like a Superman rip-off. And here... HOLY CRAP THE SUPERMAN RIPOFF JUST RIPPED A DUDE IN HALF THERE'S ENTRAILS EVERYWHERE... sorry son, you can have this comic book back when you're, uh... older." Yeah, the X-Men for instance always tackled some mature themes. They weren't FOR kids, but... (to answer your question, Ziggy, I'm typing this on my mobile,)

[OpTard]

obviously you plan to type more, i'll give you time before i answer.

[Batman]

...they assumed that younger people would make up a significant part of their audience so they made the appropriate editorial decisions regarding content and its age suitability. ie, Dudes were not ripping other dudes in half. To me, one of the biggest offenders on this score? Invincible. Here I am, reading along, going "this is fun, this reminds me of the fun comics I read when I was a kid, maybe I should pass this on to Brady, I bet he'd OH MY GOD HE JUST PUNCHED A HOLE IN THAT DUDE'S STOMACH! THERE'S BLOOD EVERYWHERE!" Not only does a comic the over-all tone of which seems perfectly suited for all or most ages suddenly limit its scope to older readers, it's also horribly uneven in terms of tone for any age reader. Gah.

Now on to the topic of all-ages comics. We didn't used to need them because almost all comics were all-ages. But in the 90s the need for them became apparent, and the first crack at the concept was actually freakin' awesome. Batman Adventures was appropriate however young you were...

[Batman]

...and entertaining however old you were. In fact it was head-and-shoulders above most of the material being purportedly produced for a grown-up audience. Since then the "all-ages" titles have degenerated to unmitigated pap. They are no longer appropriate for ALL ages, but for small children only. Possibly ones with mild retardation.

[Ultimatejobber]

This is an interesting read today. I know when I was visiting Dashbee over Wrestlemania weekend, I brought some books for his kid who is all about Iron Man. Right now, he can't really read the stories but we would look at the pictures and he would point out his favorites, pretty much the example Serge provided.

There is currently a cartoon on Cartoon Network called The Super Hero Squad that is a kid friendly introduction to a great number of heroes from the Marvel Universe.

Finally, Marvel has a series of books aimed toward a younger audience called "Marvel Adventures." The books are ongoing series that introduce characters and teams like Spider-Man, The Avengers, and the Fantastic Four. I think there are opportunities there to introduce comics to kids, but I do agree that there seem to be fewer opportunities today.

[Ultimatejobber]

Guess I should have waited for you to finish. I don't know that I would go as far as to say most all ages books are "unmitigated pap." But I see your point.

[OpTard]

May 10, 2010 12:51:45 GMT -5 Batman said:

Ah, two arguments with one stone. Yes, the kid may have an interest in superheroes sparked by these movies. Dad might say "Yeah, Iron Man and Thor, they're going to form a team with a few others called the Avengers, that's where all of this is headed, but instead of waiting a few years for the Avengers movie, I could get you a copy of the latest Avengers comic right now." Now the nearest comic book store MIGHT be hundreds of miles away,

it's 2010. if you don't have a shop close by you can go to www.fivehundredthousandwebsitestochoosefrom.com

but lets say for argument's sake that it's reachable. They buy a recent issue of the Avengers and Dad's like "OK son, there's Iron Man, and that's Thor, isn't he cool, and that guy I don't know, he's new. He looks like a Superman rip-off. And here... HOLY CRAP THE SUPERMAN RIPOFF JUST RIPPED A DUDE IN HALF THERE'S ENTRAILS EVERYWHERE... sorry son, you can have this comic book back when you're, uh... older."

except this dad wouldn't choose a middle issue of an event book that doesn't have avengers in the title. if he was informed enough to know what siege is he'd know issue 2 has a guy getting ripped in half. if he wasn't informed he'd look for a book with "Avengers" in the title. he'd pick up a copy of new or mighty avengers, he'd see the rating on the cover, and if he's any parent at all he's flip through it before giving it to his kid. and in flipping through it he'll see that the books called "avengers" in fact DON'T have a guy getting ripped in half. the only guy to be ripped in half in a relatively recent issue of avengers was the vision and he's a robot. it's ok to rip robots in half.

To me, one of the biggest offenders on this score? Invincible. Here I am, reading along, going "this is fun, this reminds me of the fun comics I read when I was a kid, maybe I should pass this on to Brady, I bet he'd OH MY GOD HE JUST PUNCHED A HOLE IN THAT DUDE'S STOMACH! THERE'S BLOOD EVERYWHERE!" Not only does a comic the over-all tone of which seems perfectly suited for all or most ages suddenly limit its scope to older readers, it's also horribly uneven in terms of tone for any age reader.

in the 2nd issue of invincible mark grayson calls a classmate an asshole. the book isn't laced with profanity but it's made clear early on this isn't an all ages book. what is it, issue 6 or 7 that omniman rips the immortal in half? yes, invincible has a fun lighthearted tone, but the violence has been consistent the entire series. now you seem to be under the impression that these 2 things can't be in the same book. well all i can say is you're wrong. kirkman is doing a book for adults, but he wants the book to have a certain tone and he thinks adults can enjoy that. and you do enjoy it. and you might think a book with that tone is something you want to give your son, but that's not who kirkman is making the book for. you want your kid to read a book like that? give him ultimate spider-man.

Now on to the topic of all-ages comics. We didn't used to need them because almost all comics were all-ages. But in the 90s the need for them became apparent, and the first crack at the concept was actually freakin' awesome. Batman Adventures was appropriate however young you were and entertaining however old you were. In fact it was head-and-shoulders above most of the material being purportedly produced for a grown-up audience. Since then the "all-ages" titles have degenerated to unmitigated pap. They are no longer appropriate for ALL ages, but for small children only. Possibly ones with mild retardation.

if you're talking about books like the marvel adventures line then i'd say you're judging it without reading it. there are many adult customers who read the marvel adventures books (in addition to in-continuity titles) because they find them to be fun, well written super hero comics. and if your problem is books like tiny titans then i'd say you simply have no idea what comedy is. i read tiny titans every month and i laugh at almost every page.

and as far as "needing" an all ages line being a new phenomenon, you're showing a very selective memory. before batman adventures both marvel and DC had specific all ages imprints. marvel had star comics and DC had the impact imprint. the big guys have recognized this need for decades now.

and my original point still stands. the majority of mainstream marvel and DC superhero comics are no more or less all ages than it ever was. the event comics like siege and infinite crisis are made for the hardcore fans which skew older and so they're written older. but regular titles while complex are not any more inappropriate or harder to follow than the same title back in the 80s.

[Batman]

UJobber - It's possible I'm exaggerating in calling them "unmitigated pap" but honestly, would you buy one for yourself? That's the real difference between something being truly for ALL ages and something that's made for kids and not particularly bright ones at that.

Ziggy - There's a big problem with the theory of "Well, EVENT books skew a little older." Event books are EVENTS, ie important episodes in these characters lives, that will be referred back to in the core books on a regular basis. OK, Sentry didn't disembowel some villain in the Avengers title. I didn't realize that. But he's still a hero IN the Avengers team and still a guy who disemboweled some guy.

There's too much gore and there's too much death (and death treated casually, as though it were an aside) not just for the accessibility of kids, but just for my enjoyment as a fan. I'm damn sick of it.

Re: Invincible-- Yes, Kirkman has consistently splattered gore all over the place every once in a while throughout the series. It makes me uncomfortable and gives me reservations about unevenness of tone of a book I otherwise enjoy every time he does it.

[OpTard]

i've really been struggling on how to respond to this because it seems to me you're just criticizing things you haven't read. you call the all ages stuff "for kids and not particularly bright ones" but have you actually read any of the marvel adventures books? you all but admit you haven't read the avengers or related titles as you constantly misrepresent what goes on in them. the sentry isn't a hero in the avengers who disemboweled a villian. he's a psychopath on a team of villians pretending to be avengers who disemboweled a hero. he also has since become THE prime villain of the siege story. so again, your denigration of the avengers is false.

there really isn't that much gore in mainstream big two comics. not if you look at it percentage-wise. the gore that is there just happens to come in some high-profile comics. but yes, event books DO skew older. its audience is older. and just because a story skews older doesn't mean it can't be important to a title that is more kid friendly. the avengers titles that spin out of siege will not be as violent as siege is. the avengers title that span in to siege weren't as violent. but the fact is a little kid off the street saying "ooh, avengers. i've heard of them" simply isn't gonna pick up siege.

and really, i just want you to stop reading comics. you complain about and criticize books you don't even read, and i don't even know how to respond to a grown man telling me that the blood in invincible makes them "uncomfortable."

[Batman]

Well, as far as that goes, I mostly have stopped reading them. Again. I like the damn things so much that every once in a while I try to find a jumping-on point once again. I usually fail. I'm far from alone in basically giving up on comics.

[OpTard]

well maybe all the post-siege avengers comics with the new "heroic age" will interest you.

[Habs]

Shit now I want to read siege!

[Lucky]

I caught up on Blackest Night during the draft so now I have to move on to finishing Dark Reign and the Siege. Stupid yearly comic reading.

[Stu]

May 10, 2010 20:27:51 GMT -5 OpTard said:

well maybe all the post-siege avengers comics with the new "heroic age" will interest you.

One suspects Shadowland isn't part of that...

Hooray for Pirate Batman though!

[Batman]

Zig - Yeah, it seems like the big 2 have been promising to ease off the brutality and angst Real Soon Now since, I don't know, forever or so. But, yeah, one can hold out hope that they Really Men It this time. I'll be sure to check it out.

[BFG]

I got in to comics when I was a kid due to Spider-Man cartoons.

My niece got in to them the same way.

When I visit my local comic book store, I see kids all the time. Hell, standing in line to get in to comic book stores this Free Comic Book day I saw tonnes of kids telling there dads and moms about how they want to get this book or that because they saw a cartoon or movie.

Kids still like comics.

As far as comics being too mature for kids....one of the first big story lines I ever read was the Dark Phoenix saga. I'd say most comics today are no more or less mature then that. I'd also argue the Harry Potter books, Avatar cartoon series, and a bunch of other kid "friendly" franchises deal with content that outweighs your average super hero book.

On the other hand...if you think mature books like Preacher, Locke & Key, Walking Dead or Sin City are ruining comics...I disagree. Those are the books that can get the non-kids back in to comics, or make grown adults who have never given comics a shot fans.

[OpTard]

i think this whole thing could be solved if serg just mans up and grows a pair.

[Batman]

I absolutely do not think that adults-only titles like Preacher are "ruining" comics. I loved Preacher, it brought me back to comics after the 90s drove me away. There's no reason why comics aimed at adults and comics aimed at younger readers shouldn't be able to coexist.

I was talking about how it seemed to me that fandom is not being replenished with young fans because it seemed to me that writers want every storyline to be Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns. I think there is a big difference in age suitability of something like Dark Phoenix Saga and something like Watchmen. Dark Phoenix is perfect for a younger reader--a little bit challenging, a little bit beyond what they are accustomed to, a stretch. Whereas something like Watchmen, you're going to feel hesitant to recommend to anyone before their late teens.

If I'm wrong about that, good--I hope I'm wrong.