[williamssl]

I'm posting this a little earlier than anticipated because:
1) I've got a heavy travel schedule this week, but more importantly
2) The first batch of Round 2 matchups are blowouts of epic proportions

The next set of Round 2 matchups is in all likelihood the only one that has the possibility of being a close matchup. It was Marvel's #2 guy, Wolverine, going up againt Marvel's #3 Captain America. Adamantium claws vs. adamantium shield. Berserker rage vs. goodie two shoes.

Cast your vote and your smack here, and refer to the appropriate Up Next thread for possible guidance.

Wouldn't be complete without this:

• You're voting for who you think is the greatest superhero, or the greater of the two.
  
• You can only vote once.
  
• The poll will close at 8 pm Eastern on Tue, Nov 14, so have your vote in by then for it to count.
  
• If you're undecided, let people know that so they can try to swing you one way or the other.
  

[Krydor]

I'm going to vote for the Cap. He killed Nazis, lots of Nazis.

[salmonjunkie]

I am very much on the fence with this one. CONVINCE ME, DAMMIT!

[Batman]

Damn, I never got around to making a big argument for Captain America.

First off, Captain America doesn't just represent America. He represents indomitable will and he's the conscience of the Marvel Universe. It's no coincidence that in Secret Wars, when Dr. Doom took Beyonder's power, Captain America is the one hero he couldn't just wave away, and basically debated him out of the Beyonder power.

He's also the Marvel hero who fought Batman to a standstill in the JLA/Avengers crossover. And the leader of the anti-reg side in Civil War.

He gets written into these spots because he's special. Because of everything he represents.

[salmonjunkie]

Ok, I ended up voting for Wolverine. He's had so many layers in his character. First, he came out as just a dude with claws. Then he joined the x-men as a ruthless warrior but fell in love with Jean Grey, then Frank Miller wrote his AWESOME Wolverine-as-a-noble-samurai story, then the Weapon X mystery, then the revelation that he's really old, served with Cap in WWII, then the arc where Magneto tore out his adamantium and he really had bone claws, then the magnificent Origins story, and then being the catalyst for reversing the effects of House of M, then the revelation that he was an evil machine in the Vietnam War. Wolverine's evolution has been one of the best stories in comics ever (despite the mishaps such as feral wolverine and the Sabretooth is his dad, no he's not story.)

Don't get me wrong. Cap is a very very important and very very special character who is multi-faceted, iconic, and is THE Marvel hero, much in the way Supes is THE DC hero. But Wolvie edges him out, despite the fact that 9 times out of ten, Cap would beat Wolvie in a fight.

[The Canadian Content]

Cap once lifted Thor's hammer. He's one of the very few who deserved the honour. He picked it up not to use it himself, but to get it back to Thor so he could kick ass.

I'm all about Cap here.

[OpTard]

yeah, not that it seems to be helping any, but i went with cap here. i love worlverine, but i just think cap is the shit. for a long time, he was always a guy where i thought the character was better than his comics. i felt that way about batman for a long time. i'd feel that everyone KNEW batman rocked, but no one could seem to write him that way. then TAS came along and finally showed people how to do it (at it still took them a while to get it right in the comics).

i feel like this is what happened with cap, except instead of a cartoon showing people the way, it's the ultimates. somewhere along the line, people started to forget that cap's a SOLDIER. he'd gotten so caught up in the superheroe game that people started to write him like superman than a super soldier from the 40's. then the ultimates came along and and millar was like "hey, THIS is how a guy from WWII would act, then all of a sudden the guy's the main marvel U were like "hey! our cap is from WWII too! i forgot!" then they gave the book to brubaker and now we see what cap really is. and that's awesome.

besides, ultimate cap should win this contest by himself.

[salmonjunkie]

Great argument, Zigs. Ultimate Cap is THE SHIT, and had this been Ultimate Cap vs. Ultimate Wolvie, I'd have voted U Cap in a heartbeat.

And Brubaker's Cap has been awesome. So was the story arc of Marvel Knights Cap in the Middle East and the one where he unmasked - might've been the same story arc? (I forgot who wrote that)

Alas....

[Lucky]

Should that matter? When we were debating Robin in round one we included the Teen Titans version in the mix. Surely the movie versions of these characters all factor in to these decisions. We had that huge Hulk/WW debate about their pop culture presences. Someone even brought up the Dark Knight Returns Robin.

As far as I'm concerned Ultimate Cap DOES factor in. So does that horrible Captain America movie. And those handful of times I saw him on cartoons (I even watched that Avengers West Coast cartoon). And the Ultimate Avengers movie. Because if we weren't factoring in all the various versions of these guys throughout our culture then at least half of the conversation to this point would be moot. Surely Wolverine's appearances in the cartoons and movies are part of his votes.

Of course it probably doesn't matter now since most of the votes are in.

[Ryan Who Loves Punk]

Yeah, I was recently rereading the Ultimates. I was just gonna say though, Cap doesn't have much of a conscience in that one. I still don't get him stabbing that Captain Middle East guy at the end. Why not have a fair trial? I thought he was written brilliantly, though.

[Batman]

Ryan - Yeah, I don't get Ultimate Cap so much. No little wings on his head, and basically just a soldier. MU Cap is so much more.

Sal - While I still feel that Cap is the greater of the two, you made a great case for Wolverine.

This is the first time a guy I was really pulling for went down. Damn.

[Loki]

I get the difference between the two Caps. Ultimate Cap is Captain America, the Soldier. MU Cap is Captain America, America's ultimate ambassador.

Or, as a couple of us at work have described it, MU Cap is the personification of America as it should be. Ultimate Cap is the personification of America as it is now.

[OpTard]

ult cap is no way the symbol of america as it is now. he's a straight up 40's cat. do you really think either captain america ran around europe in WWII without KILLING any nazis?

[williamssl]

By vote of 63% to 37%, Wolverine wins and advances to the semifinals to take on Batman.

[Loki]

operation said:

ult cap is no way the symbol of America as it is now. he's a straight up 40's cat. do you really think either captain America ran around Europe in WWII without KILLING any Nazis?

Nope, I think you're wrong. Tell me why you think he isn't, and I'll tell you why I think he is.

Okay, me first. Also, keep in mind I haven't read Civil War, so whatever he's doing there didn't affecting my MU Cap point.

Ult Cap is so much more aggressive than his MU self. In the real world, other countries see that same type of aggression in the US as a whole, specifically as it comes to US foreign policy.

Ult Cap also tends toward an "I'm right, and I know I'm right, and I'll go forth, no matter what anyone else thinks". Again, that pretty much sums up the US and their mentality in Iraq.

Ult Cap is cocky and brash. See world view of US.

Finally, Ult Cap doesn't seem as intelligent as MU Cap. He may be, I don't know. If he is, it is overshadowed by the "act first, think later" mentality that Ult Cap displays.

Also, consider the real world time period the Ultimates was written in (i.e. - just a few years ago). Ult Cap reads like a personification/opinion of America and America's elected leaders. If Ult Cap was written by Grant Morrison or another British writer I bet a lot of people would make that same connection.

[OpTard]

Ult Cap is so much more aggressive than his MU self. In the real world, other countries see that same type of aggression in the US as a whole, specifically as it comes to US foreign policy.

Ult Cap also tends toward an "I'm right, and I know I'm right, and I'll go forth, no matter what anyone else thinks". Again, that pretty much sums up the US and their mentality in Iraq.

Ult Cap is cocky and brash. See world view of US.

all that was true in the 40s. the difference was people LIKED us for it.

If Ult Cap was written by Grant Morrison or another British writer I bet a lot of people would make that same connection.

ultimates IS written by a british writer.

[Loki]

operationretard said:

Ult Cap is so much more aggressive than his MU self. In the real world, other countries see that same type of aggression in the US as a whole, specifically as it comes to US foreign policy.

Ult Cap also tends toward an "I'm right, and I know I'm right, and I'll go forth, no matter what anyone else thinks". Again, that pretty much sums up the US and their mentality in Iraq.

Ult Cap is cocky and brash. See world view of US.

all that was true in the 40s. the difference was people LIKED us for it.

If Ult Cap was written by Grant Morrison or another British writer I bet a lot of people would make that same connection.

ultimates IS written by a british writer.

Bendis is British? Huh. Didn't know that.

Anyway, you're not disproving my thesis. Sure, Cap can be a guy from the 40s (btw - there were a lot of people who DIDN'T like us in the 40s, and there is no way that the US is viewed the same today in 2006 that we were in 1942) with a soldier's mentality - I even said as much earlier. But I still maintain that he is also a representation of America as it is now.

[OpTard]

bendis doesn't write ultimates. never did.

and i didn't say the US is viewed the same today. i said those traits were true. those triats are viewed differently today.

captain america was a soldier trained to kill nazis for his government. and yes, be a symbol also. that's true for both universes. the difference between UU and MU is that in UU, cap continues to be that person (just fighting a different enemy), in MU he's become just a superhero.

[Batman]

loki said:

Bendis is British? Huh. Didn't know that.

No. But Millar is.

Anyway, you're not disproving my thesis. Sure, Cap can be a guy from the 40s (btw - there were a lot of people who DIDN'T like us in the 40s, and there is no way that the US is viewed the same today in 2006 that we were in 1942) with a soldier's mentality - I even said as much earlier. But I still maintain that he is also a representation of America as it is now.

I agree that this is one interpretation, but I disagree that it's at all subtle. Anyone who isn't "getting" it, is probably intentionally ignoring the subtext. Would you say that's a fair assessment Optard?

[Loki]

D'Oh! Thanks for the correction, Serg.