[Batman]

krydor said:

If Batman was put in a box and thrown in a river, sans utility belt, I bet he gets out. Spiderman gets thrown in a river without his powers, he dies.

In the end Superman and Robin deduce where he's buried, and dig up the coffin, and... It's EMPTY! 'Cause Batman got out on his own. 'Cause that's how he rolls.

(The bad-guy had emptied all of his utility belt gadgets, by the way. No hand laser.)

[The Canadian Content]

I like how Supes says he looked "everywhere" while landing on Bats. "Uh, yeah, Robin, I looked everywhere. I have no idea where he could be. He's certainly no underneath me right now."

Fuck Superman and his lies!

[Krydor]

Ah, so having an actual skill that relates to stopping bad guys is nothing compared to the cut of ones nightclothes? Since when was this a fashion show? "Spidey looks lovely in his summer wear, but black never goes out of style." Besides, where's the Cape?

Batman, no magic powers but a superior brain. Batman, had he not become Batman, would still be a hugely successful business man. Peter Parker would play WoW all day, as he jumped from McJob to McJob.

(And yes, Friday and Gannon would have that whole "who is Spiderman" crap solved by morning donut time, made a bad joke and saved the world from the hippies. They were cooler than Spiderman.)

[Batman]

Carnage is, to me, a very generic violent psychopath. Very much a victim of the "if the fans like Joker and Venom, obviously we need someone even more creepy, violent, and psychopathic" mindset. Much like Abattoir on the Batman side of the fence.

[Lucky]

Ditto. I don't get Carnage at all. Its like this conversation happened.

13 year old fans: VENOM ROCKS! He's bad ass! KICK ASS! I just wish he was more evil!
Writers: But his conscience and blind hatred of Spider-Man gives his character depth. He's not just some ruthless monster who rampages everywhere, he's just...
Marvel Editors: SHUT THE FUCK UP! Just make Venom more evil so we can make money.
Writers: But... there's so much potential left for the Venom character that we'd erase with such a moronic change.
Marvel Editors: You're write. Make ANOTHER Venom and make him more evil! They'll buy another comic now! And give Venom a book!

Actually I never read much Spider-Man so my character interpretations could be totally wrong. But that's how I always felt.

I am also underwhelmed by Kraven. I'm cool with Goblin.

But Joker rules all. Ras kicks ass. Two Face and Black Mask I like too. Batman's got the villain depth too. His rogues run much deeper than Spidey's. Once you get to the Mysterio, Shocker, Beetle level things go bad.

And how is Spidey's solo runs a plus for him? He TRIED to join the FF and they rejected him. He TRIED to join the X-Men and they pointed out he wasn't a mutant. He TRIED to join the Avengers a couple of times and Cap almost killed him. Spidey was solo because he couldn't keep friends and play well with others. Batman can't either but people STILL go to him.

The whole "people don't like Spidey but he keeps going" is a crappy arguement against Bats. Spidey isn't disliked. He's just annoying and people don't trust him because he fucks around too much and is too headstrong. Batman is disliked because he's a manipulative brooding bastard. And yet they STILL respect him, defer to him, and invite him to all the meetings. Because he commands respect. And because he has skills that noone else has.

That's the "dislike" difference. Batman is respected by all his peers despite being an asshole. Spidey is respected by few of them because he's a jackass. Everyone is waiting for Batman to chill out and for Spidey to grow up (although I guess maybe he has now).

Now if Spidey were going against Flash I'd not put him over Wally in that category.

And yeah, 2 of his proteges made this tournament. That's got to say something.

[Batman]

I agree with you about Batman, and about Spidey's rogues, but--although I like Batman better--I don't agree with you about Spider-man himself.

The only reason the general public has a somewhat negative impression is a media smear campaign. And at least half of them are in the "if the Bugle hates him that much, he can't be all bad" camp.

And I think most of his peers do respect him as a guy who's really capable in the super-heroing dept, even if not much of a team player. Those who don't, it's because they're only seeing the surface (and probably because they're over-serious.)

He may wise-crack, but that's always been portrayed as a defense mechanism to help keep him going in the face of his fears.

That's one of the big positives in Peter's favor: he's always been portrayed as someone who embodies true courage--ie doing the right thing despite one's fears. Whereas Batman is (jusitifiably) just not scared of anything.

[salmonjunkie]

I'm voting Spidey because he's my favorite superhero of all time. As far as who's a better hero? It's hard to say. They're on equal ground to me, but for completely different reasons. But I really can't make an argument against Bats. He's the best DC hero in my book. The guy commands respect despite a lack of superpower. He's considered SUPERMAN's EQUAL in the DC universe, whereas Spidey is the pereniall plucky underdog.

As far as villains galleries, they're very very even. Both have great villains in Green Goblin, Venom, Joker, and Ra's, lesser villains such as Dr. Octopus and Mr. Freeze have been given great treatments outside of comics (Spider-Man 2 movie and Batman Animated Series), guys like Sandman, The Lizard, Two-Face, and Catwoman have helped give their respective heroes a lot of depth. Even guys I don't care for guys like Mysterio, Vulture, and Bane have been given interesting stories with our heroes. They both have colorful gimmicky guys, and they both have cool "ungimmicky" types too (Chameleon and Red Hood) that I dig.

My thing about Carnage - he's a VERY powerful character. As far as brute force goes, he probably beats every other villain on Bats and Spidey's gallery. I'm willing to bet Carnage could take on Doomsday. However, I don't like the character. There is no depth to Carnage at all. He's a psychotic murderer, yeah, fine. But his character is weak.

Anyways, I can't use their villains galleries to say who the better hero is. They both have a very deep roster of villains of all types, and some of them are among the best antagonists of all time. Maybe I'll give the edge to Batman, becuase I don't think he had any enemy as lame as Hydroman.

Batman's 2 proteges... Great, great heroes. That's all I can say.

How's this for a reason to vote Spidey over Batman? Ultimate Spidey is currently dating Ultimate Kitty Pryde. Yeah?

[Krydor]

That's one of the big positives in Peter's favor: he's always been portrayed as someone who embodies true courage--ie doing the right thing despite one's fears. Whereas Batman is (jusitifiably) just not scared of anything.

I'm genuinely interested in what Peter is afraid of. I've heard tell that Spidey's skeleton is nearly as strong as Wolverine's and is one of the stronger superheroes. It's unlikely he'll fall to his death or be snuck up on from behind. Essentially, He's almost indestructible.

[Batman]

Y'know how Spidey's fighting style involves a lot of...jumping around? He does that because he's not invulnerable and he does not have super-fast healing. He is only alive because his spider-sense helps him stay one step ahead of his opponents. Usually.

In Kraven's Last Hunt, Kraven gets the drop on him and blows him away with a rifle. For those who haven't read this, I will not give away the cheat that allows him to survive. The important thing is that the readers knew there must be some kind of cheat, because if Kraven really had shot him with a rifle, as it appeared, he would be dead.

So, yeah, he has some real apprehension for his safety every time.

[Lucky]

Serg, Marvel's heroes tend to TRADITIONALLY have a short fuse with Spidey. Captain America especially. Cap booted him from the Avengers if I remember correctly because he couldn't follow directions and play right. Its been a common sentiment in the Marvel U. And its part of what we like about him. But its a fair difference. DCU doesn't like Batman either but he earned their respect a LONG time ago. The DCU turn to Batman and have for as long as we can remember. Hell, how many times has Batman fucked up and screwed the DCU with his paranoia and manipulations and they STILL turn to him for leadership.

I know the general public hates Spidey because of media bias. But his peers have traditionally been annoyed by his immaturity. Obviouslly that's faded as he's matured, but it was a MAJOR story point for a LONG time and the main reason given for why he never joined a group until the last year or so.

salmonjunkie said:

How's this for a reason to vote Spidey over Batman? Ultimate Spidey is currently dating Ultimate Kitty Pryde. Yeah?

Ok, mad respect there. Kitty, MJ, Gwen, Black Cat is a haul. Can I count Kirsten Dunst in general? I want Kirsten Dunst.

Kitty and Black Cat probably confirmed the hookup battle for me.

Still, Bats has had some decent hauls.








He did one of his greatest villain's daughters. I had a buddy in college who slept with one of our professors' daughter. Hottie too. I count that similar. Batman ain't gay.

And don't post that comic panel, serg. I've seen it.

Wikipedia says Batman nailed Lois Lane. I don't remember that but if its true. He did Superman's girl. Nuff said. That deserves respect.

[Deleted]

luckylopez said:

Ditto. I don't get Carnage at all. Its like this conversation happened.

13 year old fans: VENOM ROCKS! He's bad ass! KICK ASS! I just wish he was more evil!
Writers: But his conscience and blind hatred of Spider-Man gives his character depth. He's not just some ruthless monster who rampages everywhere, he's just...
Marvel Editors: SHUT THE FUCK UP! Just make Venom more evil so we can make money.
Writers: But... there's so much potential left for the Venom character that we'd erase with such a moronic change.
Marvel Editors: You're write. Make ANOTHER Venom and make him more evil! They'll buy another comic now! And give Venom a book!

And what's wrong with this? It's funny you mention 13-year-olds in there, because I'm pretty sure that's how old I was when Carnage was introduced. Just because we're adults, now, doesn't mean we should be forced to forget about what made us enjoy comics back in the day.

And since when do villains all need to be evil AND manipulative AND have depth? Sure it's fun when they do. But it can be just as fun when the villain is just a hulking brute with no conscience. Wasn't Bane the one who broke Batman's back? Wasn't Doomsday the one who "killed" Superman?

[Batman]

Yeah... Don't like them much either.

[Deleted]

Well whether you like Bane and Doomsday or not, they were at the cores of months-long major storylines that were huge at the time. Sure, they haven't remained major players, but they were major enemies at the time.

[Batman]

gatorbait said:

Sure, they haven't remained major players...

I think you've hit on something there. Overhyped, shallowly-characterized villains make a big splash for a brief moment, then fade into obscurity. I think that description applies nicely to each of the guys you mentioned. I'd say "Hush" is well on his way there himself. Whereas, I think Black Mask and Red Hood will be sticking around for the long haul.

Sorry, I don't mean this as a personal attack, I'm sure there are things that I give too much credit to, just 'cause they came along when I was just the right age for them.

[The Canadian Content]

First off, it was my understanding that Spidey never got into the Avengers because he refused to reveal his identity to Cap and the gang. His being kicked out for being immature would thus become a non-issue.

Secondly, when did Bats nail Zatanna?

[Lucky]

I don't know, but Wiki said he did. And I seem to recall them referencing it in recent years. I seem to recall the two of them having scenes in both the fallout from Identity Crisis (then again, maybe that was just over Z's actions to Bats) and that crossover where all the adults turned into kids (so Robin had to be Batman and Batman had to be Robin). I think they hooked up in the cartoon though. I seem to remember that. And Batman knew he daddy so I think there was a "I slept with my mentor's daughter" thing there. Not sure though.

Actually Wiki says that she didn't hook up with Animated Bats "unlike most other incarnations." I definitely think it was the "my daddy was teaching you and you nailed me behind his back" thing.

I KNOW there was an Avengers story arch where Spidey joined in the 70's-80's. Cap let him in on a probationary basis and he spent the entire mission pissing Cap off because he wouldn't listen and kept acting alone. In the end Cap offered to let him train to be an Avenger (I think Captain Marvel/Photon and Firefox were "training" at the time) and Spidey was kind of offended and passed. I think they went through that story some other time too. Then Spidey became a reserve in the '90s but I don't think that went anywhere.

Spidey also had that run WAY back when he tried to join all the teams because he was looking for a paycheck. And I know the FF got pissed at him over it but I can't remember if the Avengers did.

Oh, and I'm with serge. I never said that big, bad, evil monster is a bad villain. But what's special about him? Carnage is Evil Venom. Yay? I didn't object to Venom being listed. He's pretty cool. But I never saw anything worth giving a shit about in Carnage. Noone listed Bane either. Although Bane had that weird "I'm your brother!" story later. Noone listed Killer Croc as a great Batman villain. Noone listed Rhino as a great Spider-Man villain. Carnage doesn't strike me as much different.

EDIT: The Spidey story was Avengers 236-237 and I'm reading stuff that suggests I was wrong. Maybe he did get booted for not revealing his identity back in that government sponsor era. Still, Cap was definitely annoyed by him in that story arch.