[Deleted]

Yes, but we determined last time that Spider-Man > Superman. By default, rating 2 of their toughest villains should abide by the same logic.

[Lucky]

Only if Carnage had killed Spidey. Doomsday pulled off the goal of every villain. He actually took down his arch rival (of all of 7 comics). Carnage is just another loser who couldn't get the job done.

Me? I'm abstaining on account of them both sucking balls.

[Deleted]

Yes, but Supes didn't STAY DEAD! Venom thought he had killed Spidey at one point, too:

[OpTard]

erik larson stinks

[Batman]

"Larsen." And, yeah, back when he was doing Spider-man, he was sort of a sloppier Todd McFarlane. But I've always found his more recent "Savage Dragon" stuff really nice.

Hey, can we do "Comic Book Artists" Showdown next? Or does everybody want to do "Who Would Win in a Fight" first?

[Deleted]

operationretard said:

erik larson stinks

I actually agree whole-heartedly with you, there. I didn't even like McFarlane too much. Bagley, all the way. Always wanted to see Jim Lee do Spidey, too.

[The Canadian Content]

I'd rather see "who'd win". I'm not all too familiar with artists. I've just never cared too much who was drawing as long as the stories were compelling. Given the fact that there were a lot of people who had a hard time coming up with 16 heroes and villains, I'd be willing to bet I'm not the only one unfamiliar with artists.

[Deleted]

I'll concur on that one. I could MAYBE go for an 8-person artist bracket, but I'll have a hard enough time coming up with 8.

Definitely in favor of the "Who'd Win" showdown, though.

[Loki]

gatorbait said:

Yes, but we determined last time that Spider-Man > Superman. By default, rating 2 of their toughest villains should abide by the same logic.

Gator, you've gotta return Cort's 15 pound manhood to her and borrow her brain for a moment: You're not making sense.

All we determined that we liked Spidey better than Superman. That's it. Their villians should be judged by their own crieria. Otherwise we might as well rank Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, Penguin, R'as al Ghul (or however you spell it) and Bane above every other villian out there, because these are Batman villains, and Bats won the Showdown.

I picked Carnage in my list o' sixteen - I like him, too. But he hasn't really done]/i] anything. Sure, he's a psychopath who has killed lots of innocent people, but so was the leader of the Heaven's Gate cult. Doomsday also killed lots and lots of innocent people. And like Serg said, he killed his good guy. Granted, Supes came back, but Supes "rebirth" has caused havoc all across the DCU (per the Titans books for IC). Following that thread out, Doomsday is part of the reason for the recent upheavel of the DCU. Carnage hasn't come close to having the same effect.


Totally off topic: I loved Darkhawk when I was younger. He appeared in the Iron Man (or War Machine, can't remember) MAX line. The story was black and white. It was an.... interesting take on the character.

Lucky: There was an interesting Doomsday story out a while back that detailed his origin. It was a good read. Can't remember the GN it was in, though. Anyone else remember?

[Deleted]

Loki, I didn't mean that EVERY Spidey villain is better than EVERY Superman villain. Surely, Vulture is not in the same league as Lex Luthor. But on the level we're talking about concerning Carnage and Doomsday, they've each had about the same relative impact and were both very difficult villains for the heroes to overcome.

Ah, fuck it. I give up. I'm just a damned Carnage mark.

[Lucky]

gatorbait said:

Yes, but Supes didn't STAY DEAD! Venom thought he had killed Spidey at one point, too:

Doomsday still did better than Carnage and most every did. He put his guy in the ground. That he didn't stay there for more than a year is another issue. But still more than Carnage can lay claim to. And Venom. But Venom's not the arguement. His lameass kid is.

Yes, Loki, I did know they gave Doomsday an origin. Something about being Kryptonian before the Kryptonians took over, dying a thousand times, and hating all life especially Kryptonian. It was still a mere few months since his debut and with no backstory at all before he killed Superman. I could never understand why DC did that with Superman AND Batman. Why not let Joker break Batman's fucking back? Why not let one of Superman's hated enemies, or even someone else's hated enemy, kill Superman? Why create a one dimesional uncompelling character to get a coup like that? Just to try a cheap way of introducing a new villain as a big baddie? Lame.

At least Bane got introduced awhile before he did the deed and we got to actually know the guy. Doomsday was like "oh, look... a big guy laying waste to everyone... hey, he's a monster... he look, he killed Superman and now he's dead too. Yay?"

Doomsday and Carnage. Brothers in suck. Mindless, one dimensional psychos with nothing compelling to them. But Doomsday accomplished more. I'm still not voting. Who's Carnage got next round? EDIT: Jesus, fuck... Poison Ivy/Red Skull? I'm just not going to vote for an entire side! I can't say a Phoenix vs Thanos/Bizarro does anything for me either. This tourney sucks.

[Loki]

I see your points, and agree with some of 'em. One another hand, though, I can see why they did that with Doomsday. They needed a super mega bad ass character who could lay waste to just about everything. I can't think of too many Superman villains (who also aren't super lame - I'm looking at you, Mongul) who fit the bill.

Be that as it may, you know what is most aggravating about Doomsday? He's now become an also ran. Why the hell was the mega powerful bad guy who offed Supes in a shitty prison on Earth helping the bad guys in their assault on Metropolis in IC? That made absolutely no sense. He's not a run of the mill bad guy, like Firefly or Parasite or any of the others. He's supposed to be Doomsday.

[Lucky]

Actually didn't Dr Psycho and Warp pull him literally out of Hell? Or at least out of the middle of the Earth? And they did act like this was the secret weapon that was going to fuck up the heroes bad. Doomsday was the big tank. But yeah, I agree. That was such a rush and a note in an otherwise excellent story that was well written and filled with nuance. The whole concept about IC was that we were getting hints for so long on these things and then Doomsday just showed up. And he was down just as quick. If I liked the guy I'd probably be annoyed.

Yeah, I get the "we needed someone who could do the job" thing. But at the same time Doomsday could have been a tool of Brainiac or Luthor or something. You could have beefed up someone. I don't know. It just bugged me that he was such a blatant plot device. X goes on rampage and takes out the League. X threatens Metropolis. X and Superman fight to a standstill. X and Superman kill each other. They barely even gave X a name (which technically they didn't since "Doomsday" was just what the League called him). He was such a clear MacGuffin.

[williamssl]

Carnage defeats Doomsday, 75% to 25% to advance.

[The Canadian Content]

williamssl said:

Carnage defeats Doomsday, 75% to 25% to advance.

And the world said "meh".