[Lucky]

Dev, you read comics? You read these things?

Whedon's writing Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Season 8 now and its about 7 issues in. Picks up 2 years or something after the end of the series (and thus after Angel as well). I'm reading through it now and I kinda hate it. But I hate it for the same reasons I disliked the show. Shitty dialogue. Buffy's a whiny self absorbed brat. Dawn's an even bigger one. Annoying dialogue. The only male characters are completely emasculated. Shitty annoying dialogue. Did I mention that the stupid Valley Girl speak drives me insane?

But its canon and it seems true to the sense of the show. Which you liked. Thought you might be interested if you weren't aware of it.

Actually I just wanted to read the extended "season" of Angel that I read about but that's apparently not out yet. "After the Fall." I'll keep my eye out on that because I, you know, liked that show.

[DevSop]

I read the first 5 issues so far Lucky, and I disagree about a few things you said. Buffy seems alot better as a character than she was in the later seasons of the show. She's not as self-absorbed or deluded about some things and she's not as morbidly dark as she came across in seasons 6 & 7.

And I completely agree that the show killed their male characters by the end of the show, especially Giles and Xander...but I got to say that Xander as Buffy's watcher and the fact that he seems to come across as the man in charge is a huge positive for me. That relationship/friendship; Buffy & Xander; was always one of my favorites and I really want to see how/if it develops.

Dawn's never been written well consistently. At her best, I think she's up near my favorites. At her worst, I still hate Willow more...but Dawn could compete. I'm not sure what I think that they're considering using Amy/Warren in addition to the Military as the over-arching Big Bads, but I do think that Buffy, Xander, Willow, and Dawn have come across pretty well in the first arc of the comics. I haven't read Faith's issue yet. I've heard good things though.

And I also can't wait for the Angel season. I figure it'd be just as consistent as the series which is good. That's where you and I may differ on the two shows as well. I think Buffy at it's peak was a ton better than Angel, but then Angel was never as bad as Buffy in it's valleys. Angel 1-5 is a better, more consistent show than Buffy 1-7, but Buffy 2-4 is better than anything Angel put out.

[Stu]

Dawn's a character I found totally pointless being kept around after the whole "Key" storyline was done. From a character standpoint, they just rehashed Buffy's Growing Up experiences from the earlier seasons, but with a much more whiney and self-absorbed character. Christ, she even complained once that Buffy (who once killed herself so Dawn wouldn't have to) had delusions that Sunnydale was all a figment of her imagination and in her "real" life, Dawn didn't exist. Her being a giant in Buffy right now is amusing, but nothing's really been done with it yet, and she's still whining a lot.
I'm enjoying the Faith storyline a lot, as well as Giles' part in it. The one shot about the decoy slayer was a bit of a waste, in my opinion. It was supposedly something personal to Whedon and he dedicated it to someone, but without really knowing the story behind that, the issue's just a bit hard to care about.
Since this comic is running about parallel to season 5 of Angel, I expect them to address stuff that came up in that, like Andrew becoming a Watcher, and their side of why they distrust Angel later on.

[Lucky]

I presume Andrew becoming a "watcher" is as simple as you figure. He was a trusted ally with experience with the Slayers so he got the gig. Same as Xander, Giles (duh), and Robin Wood. One of the reasons I'm probably gonna keep reading is just to see who else maybe be "watching" the squads. And I think their distrust of Angel is pretty clear too but I would be curious to see that play out on their side and see their reaction to the ultimate move from Angel's team. I always thought Wesley getting some respect from the Buffy side of the verse was an element missing for the character. I mean, it was good that HE didn't go off seeking Giles' and Buffy's respect but it would have been nice to see it.

Yeah, Dev, you and I just differ heavily on these shows. I was rewatching the final season of Angel the last couple of weeks and its running along so well when suddenly they toss in that Angel/Spike Andrew/Buffy/Immortal episode that is PURE Buffy and it just feels so awkward and silly in there. And then its over and we go back into the Black Thorn stuff. I just think Angel finds a path right around when Darla shows up and stays on it right through Darla's pregnancy, Connor, Cordelia/The Beast, Jasmine, Wolfram & Hart, Illyria, and the Black Thorn. There are runs of Buffy I HATED and runs I enjoyed a lot (like the last season) but those last 2 seasons of Angel are probably my favorite of any of that stuff.

I can't figure if Xander's been given a sense of strength and purpose in the comic or is just Mrs. Garrett. Harping on a storyline from like 2nd season of Buffy of him being in love with Buffy just feels blah to me.

And really, Buffy spends like the first full issue whining.

I did appreciate that in the comic someone FINALLY asked why none of them have guns but of course someone (Andrew?) simply answered back "because you don't." Grumble, Grumble, Grumble.

[Stu]

I meant that there's been no indication so far that Andrew is training to be a Watcher. He's just some sort of vague teacher/supervisor. As for them distrusting Angel, since the Slayers are now deemed as a terrorist organisation, you'd think they'd not be so quick to judge. Especially since in that episode, Angel was the one who did the right thing in saving Spike where Andrew was ready to let him die.

[Lucky]

I don't think Andrew IS a Watcher. I think he just liked calling himself one. I think they all just sort of got implanted as the big army Buffy assembled at the end of the show was turned into an organization. Its not the Watcher's Council, its really just an evolution. Of course why the fuck anyone would but Andrew into a position of power is beyond me, but then again its fucking Buffy running this show and she was never really the smartest general.

Eh, I think them judging Angel the way they did is 100% reasonable. He and his crew ARE running one of the places they know to be pure evil. Add in that Angel's crew all have questionable histories to begin with or little to no history with Buffy's crew I think its fairly self explanatory. The one exception I might make is that Willow made a couple of Angel appearances and seemed friendly with Fred, yet when Fred got sick and Angel went looking for her he was blocked off. But he was blocked off by Giles so that's kind of how I'd expect the old Watcher to treat the CEO of Wolfram and Hart.

If Andrew suspected Spike might be evil then saving Spike wasn't necessarily the "right thing" for Angel to do. At least not from Andrew's POV.