[Lucky]

It may be low sides on the other side but here its the two that meant to advance. #2 and #3 seed face off in a battle of King and Carpenter. Who will advance?

(2) Pet Sematary




vs


(3) Halloween

[/size]

Poll closes Fri at 8 PM EST.

[williamssl]

[Lori]

I'm kind of surprised to see everyone turn on Pet Sematary like this. I mean, Halloween was good, but c'mon. Gage. Church. Pascow. Jud F'ing Crandall.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

This is the real finals. Halloween should win this tournament,

[Lucky]

It only barely scraped by American Psycho. A lot its momentum was based on its matchups as I suspect TCM and Dawn of the Dead were two of the least viewed films in this showdown. They're also both "gore" movies (even if there is no real gore in TCM) and that's probably the element of horror that most keeps it from breaking into the mainstream. And I don't even think its seeding matters because I think this showdown may have had the most screwed up seeding of all the showdowns we've had. Seems like half the films that ended up popular in the showdown weren't even realized by the fans when they were nominating.

Halloween is Halloween. It has the iconic villain and pretty much the only of the big ones that hasn't become a joke. All the hype and love around it. The theme. And its pretty much THE film that after almost 30 years hasn't lost a single thing and remains pretty perfect.

Plus I think Carpenter is pretty much the most respected of the "Masters of Horror." He made hit after hit and had plenty of success outside of the horror genre. Assault on Precint 13, Halloween, The Fog, Elvis, The Thing, Starman, Big Trouble in Little China, Christine, They Live, Prince of Darkness. The man piled on the successes and had very few failures. And in the declining days of his career he still made movies that were well liked in the horror genre like Mouth of Madness and Vampires. He's only made 6 films since '88 so his name didn't get pimped out and watered down.

Its not like Halloween is dominating it.

[DevSop]

I'm not happy with what's happening here, but I kind of expected it too. I think Pet is far above and beyond Halloween, but I think it's come across that my tastes and everyone else's aren't really in line. I was actually surprised that it made it this far. I think Halloween is good and all, but it just seems generic, even if it was first or close to. Oh well.

[Lori]

I was voting based on what scared me the most. Nothing has ever scared me more than Pet Sematary. Maybe reading the book so young had something to do with it, as well as seeing the movie like a year later. But I saw Halloween young too, and it didn't have half the effect on me. So Michael Myers is iconic, so is Bob Marley but not everyone has to like him. Don't get me wrong, I like Halloween just fine, I'd have to look back and see where it fell on my list, but the fact that everyone thought it was omg so great doesn't mean much to me.

Yeah, Carpenter is great, but when it comes to masters of horror, who tops King? I read a foreward to Pet Sematary in a special edition, and found out he never intended to publish that book, because it was the only one that really scared him.

[Lucky]

lori said:

So Michael Myers is iconic, so is Bob Marley but not everyone has to like him.

They don't?

Yeah, Carpenter is great, but when it comes to masters of horror, who tops King? I read a foreward to Pet Sematary in a special edition, and found out he never intended to publish that book, because it was the only one that really scared him.

King's kind of hit and miss though. He's notoriously longwinded and refuses to use an editor (or at least once did) and he can get pretty formulaic. And that's his writing. The film and TV adaptations of his stories have probably been more miss than hit and he hasn't had a hell of a lot of roles in most of them. When we say something is a King film its really just a King story. Now, King actually wrote the Pet Sematary screenplay so he had more of a role in it than others, but it was still a different director/producer/cinematographer/etc. I love King. But Carpenter was the writer, director, producer, cinematographer, and composer. He's an auteur. When we say Halloween is a Carpenter film that's true in almost every way.

Which is not to say that King isn't great. I'm just saying that I think Carpenter's name still carries a lot of weight on people's opinions. More than King's. Because too many films have had King's name and not been very good. And we realize that King is separated from most of his projects so his name isn't all that descriptive. And like I said, Carpenter's not only proven himself as a horror auteur but has had major commercial and critical success outside of the genre. Not many can claim that. I think that can have an impact on people's heads and really help to legitimize who guy. Most horror above the line people don't tend to get much respect in the mainstream. They're like a step above porn folk.

I'm not criticizing a vote for Sematary. Its a great horror. Its scary as hell. Some of those images are burned into my mind they were so scary. These are two films I'm plenty glad are in the Final Four. I'm a bit surprised with Sematary but I have absolutely no objection. And a quick look to my ballot shows it was in the top 5. Its the second highest ranked film on my ballot to be alive. Halloween is the 1st.

[Lori]

Lucky, I went back and looked, and Pet Sematary squashed American Psycho 12 to 2. It beat Dawn of the Dead 10 to 4, and beat TCM 12 to 4. It has been dominating this showdown, kicking the virtual ass of every matchup it's been in, so yeah, I am surprised it's not doing better against Halloween.

My only point with King being the master of horror, is that if you asked the average person to tell you who comes to mind when they think of horror, most people are going to list King right off. Carpenter is great, I like most of his movies. I agree that a lot of King's movies aren't fabulous, but they're all memorable, because they're his. (Silver Bullet is simply awful, but can anyone forget the fog-scene in the cornfield?) I just think you're wrong when you say Carpenter carries more weight than King does. Maybe for you, but for the general populace, King is the one and only master.

[Lucky]

King does carry more weight in general. But Carpenter clearly adds more weight to any level of thespian. Because King has very little influence on "his" movies and has had much less successful translations. That was my point. This is a movie showdown. King is an author. Carpenter is a filmmaker.

And "King's films" are SO much more plentiful. 2 Shinings, 2 Salem's Lots, Salem Lot 2, Pet Sematary, Pet Sematary 2, Cujo, Silver Bullet, Night Shift, Deadzone, Christine, Children of the Corn 1 to 7, Firestarter, Graveyard Shift, It, Sometimes They Come Back, Sometimes They Come Back Again, Tommyknockers, Langoliers, Rose Red, Storm of the Century, Dark Half, Misery, Lawnmower Man, The Stand, The Mangler, Dolores Claireborne, Cat's Eye, The Dark Half, 2 Carries, Carrie 2, Kingdom Hospital, Desperation, Dreamcatcher, Hearts in Atlantis, Riding the Bullet, Secret Window, Nightmares and Dreamscapes, and on and on and on. His name is watered down in film. I dare say the average person has very little interest in seeing a horror with King's name attached seeing as how they've seen that so much of the products with his name attached are crap. And that for the last 15 years or so he has been a predominantly "Made for TV" exclusive that has been VERY uninspired.

Really, I LOVE King. I've been reading him since I was 10. But when a King story is adapted to film or the small screen? I hold my breath and expect something quite mediocre. You know what I like to do in that case? Hear the title and go find the story to read. Then prepare for a bad adaption of the good story I just read. Its what I just did with The Mist.

I do NOT think of King as a filmmaker. Carpenter, Craven, Hooper, Barker, etc are film makers. Mick Garris is a filmmaker who regularly makes King films. King's merely the inspiration. But if we're talking a more general idea of "Horror" that includes Poe, Lovecraft, and Chambers? Yes, King squashes Carpenter.

Besides, while Pet Sematary dominated I think it had a pretty easy road. American Psycho was clearly popular on this board but its not a "true horror", its fairly recent, and its quite weird. I don't know why I thought that was clsoe but I must of looked at the wrong poll. Compare it to Halloween that had to go over Psycho and Misery. Carrie had to take down the Shining and Jaws. Nightmare took down Poltergeist and Silence of the Lambs. Sematary's dominance was in part a product of having the easiest road.

In the end Halloween is largely considered the king of horror. Michael Myers is iconic. The theme is iconic. Gage is terrifying but in no way iconic. And its not like its getting rolled. Its just getting beat. Hey, if you disagree what can I say? But comes as no surprise to me. Although I thought it had a shot.

[DevSop]

How the fuck did we forget Firestarter in one of these showdowns. That movie was great.

[Lori]

I already agreed, most of King's movies are not fantastic, and no, they aren't really his. I always find it amusing that one of the "King" movies that everyone holds to such a high regard is a film he himself cannot stand. But when he does have a movie that works out, Carrie, Misery, Pet Sematary, even if it doesn't mirror the book, they are psychological masterpieces. Yes, he's an author, not a movie maker. But he's the man who told the story. And telling the story is just as important as making the movie. Without someone to tell the tale, you'd have no movie.

As far as Pet Sematary having an easy road, maybe that's true. But if so, it's only because of the people on the board, not the movies. The original Dawn of the Dead and Texas Chainsaw are great flicks, and outside people that I've talked to about this showdown are amazed that Pet Sematary beat them. The age group here helps, we probably all saw it when it first came out, not years later when it seemed dated. I showed PS to a younger friend for their first time recently, and they didn't think it was scary at all. I was still traumatized by that damn achilles tendon slice.

It's not even necessarily that I'm arguing that it should win (although it would be my choice, obviously, it was my #1 pick), Halloween is iconic, I never said it wasn't. I only expressed surprise that although it had the full support of the board all along, it fell off quickly here. I know Halloween is great, I'm just strange about what really scares me. Michael Myers didn't. Gage and Church did (yes, I'm afraid of the damn cat, I had one that looked just like him as a kid). Personally, I even like Nightmare better than Halloween, but it looks like the final 2 aren't going to be my top choices. S'alright, they were still on my list.


And Dev, I've been thinking of other things I should have nominated for weeks, Firestarter was one of the big ones I missed. But it probably wouldn't have made it to the final four anyway.

[Lucky]

That was the remake of Dawn of the Dead, incidentally. But I do agree. I've been bitching about this showdown the whole time (mostly tongue in cheek but with truth to it). Obviously we're not a huge horror base here and I think I can make the argument that we didn't think our ballots out too strong. That Carrie and Nightmare on Elm Street have advanced as far as they have despite such low seeds I think is evidence of that. That people have been saying stuff like "How'd we forget Firestarter!" is another. That some true classics missed the cut to begin with is another. Too many Final Destinations, From Dusk til Dawns, and Rings. But hey, we're clearly not a horror crowd outside of maybe you and I. And that a lot of recent and mainstream horrors got the nod is not that surprising.

I think Halloween and Sematary are two different types of fear. Halloween is dread. Its fearing what's waiting for you around the corner. Its hearing that music and letting your anxiety build as you wait for something to happen. Sematary the face of evil is very clear and its the scariness that its the perversion of the things and people you loved that's so terrifying. But I also don't think we're all necessarily voting on what scared us most. If we did Sematary might have to get my nod. But I think Halloween was the better film.

I do agree with you in regards to King. Its just that reality that his stories have to get translated by someone else and the translation is OFTEN very inferior that I think waters his name down in this field. Carpenter just has never truly watered his name down or gotten to a point where fans are like "ANOTHER crappy Carpenter film?" As much as I love them I kind of roll my eyes everytime I see ads for a new King miniseries on TV.

[Lori]

Ah, right. For some reason I thought it took down the original DotD, but now that I think about it, that didn't even make it, did it? Night of the Living Dead did, but that was the only one. This showdown was very difficult for me, I put a lot of time into thinking exactly how to rate my ballot, and a good chunk of it was based on what scared me the most (with a few funny horrors tossed in that I just love because horror can be funny). My top four were the movies that actually traumatized me when I saw them. The fact that I missed Firestarter only says that I like far too much horror to fit it on a list so small. I also forgot Ravenous, which is one of my more recent favorites. Carrie actually got bumped from my list in favor of American Psycho. I didn't want to, but hey, we could only have 25, and after the top 10 I didn't feel like the rest would count that much anyway. Halloween was #21 on my list, below both movies that are going to lose this round.

It's incredibly unfortunate that King's movies aren't made with more care. He has great ideas, and they're rarely followed through on well. I realize it's difficult to do with stories as long as the ones he tells, and the only time I get excited about a King movie is when it's based on a short story. (I still haven't seen 1408, but I really want to.)

I can't stand much new horror (with the exception of your personal favorite movie, 28DL). The Ring, Final Destination, The Grudge, none of it is even remotely scary to me. Horror has lost something over the years, and sometimes I think the 80's had the last of what was good.

[Lucky]

Duuuuuuuuuuuur. Guess who won? Sorry, Gage. You had a nice run.

[salmonjunkie]

lori said:

I can't stand much new horror (with the exception of your personal favorite movie, 28DL). The Ring, Final Destination, The Grudge, none of it is even remotely scary to me. Horror has lost something over the years, and sometimes I think the 80's had the last of what was good.

I agree with that. Although, I did like the Ring, it pales in comparison to the goodness of late 70s to late 80s horror.