[Pun]

For the last several days, some of us (myself, Solly, DevSop, Moose, and Mike) have been talking on IM about wanting to start drafting now. Since there are rarely ever any surprises in the first 5 rounds, would anyone be opposed to starting now and at least getting those first 5 in?

We could take it at a leisurely pace and by the time those first 5 rounds are done, it would probably be close to the date we were planning on starting anyway. There would be no urgency. Just take your time and make a pick whenever it is your turn. Let's face it, most of the well known guys are going to go in the early rounds. The lower rounds are where the sleepers and the ones we really need to think about come in. If we had more time for those, it might make the end of the draft go smoother.

Yes, I've brought it up before, but I think it could be done. Thoughts? Especially from Gimmick and M-Kid since they would be starting us off.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Two things:

Did we ever agree on keeper rules for '08 & beyond?

Considering we'll be missing 1-2 weeks in March, we should jump on this now.

[Lucky]

We never finalized keeper rules. We did set up a pretty solid outline and just have to work out the details. I was actually in the process of writing up a bunch of posts about the keeper system, minor league draft, and the draft that I'd top out here after completely redoing which threads are stickied and streamlining the whole thing. But I figured I'd wait until Feb 15th, run it over with you guys, and put them all up when we register a new league. You guys could drop a guy a message.

I'm indifferent to starting the league now. Truth is with each time I look at the draft date I ask myself why we don't just kick it back a day. And a day. And a day. So whatever. Going through the 1st 5 rounds in February can work for me if it does for the rest of the league.

Keeper rules shouldn't affect things right off the bat, presuming we're continuing to kep the first 4 or 5 rounds off limits to keepers. It won't be till that first keeper elligible round that you have to worry about things. That being said I'm pretty sure I have a keeper plan in mind to present.

[Jack Quinn]

yeah I am still a little fuzzy on the keeper rules, so I would like to see that addressed in condensed form.

I was wondering on the keeper issue, is this something that can be worked: we have five keepers now. For next year's draft, your higest drafted keeper is no longer available (for example, I believe I have Ryan Howard who was taken in the 6th round, so next year, I can't protect him again) and you replace that guy with another keeper.

Something along those lines. I guess it would reward you for taking a shot on a keeper that was a lower round pick (I could keep Verlander forever essentially)

that may be a stupid idea, I haven't thought it all the way through, and quite honestly don't seem to have the kind of mind TO think it through (we will call this the Lopez mind)

oh, and I am cool with starting the draft so long as I can get my hand on a nifty draft sheet like I had last year

[Lucky]

Here's what I was thinking based on the people I've talked to recently who have done keepers before.

- In 2007 anyone drafted after the 5th round in 2006 can be kept.
- In 2008 anyone drafted after the 5th round in 2007 can be kept. Anyone kept the year before can be kept at the cost of a draft pick. The pick would be 2 (or 3) rounds higher than he was drafted in.
- In 2009 anyone drafted after the 5th round in 2008 can be kept. Anyone kept before will be at the cost of a draft pick. Same rules apply and if this is their 3rd time being kept you move up 2 more rounds.
- Etc.

So just taking Moose's and my keepers here's how it would work. Presuming a 21 Round Draft and a 2 Round penalty.

Moose	Lucky
2007
Ryan Howard (6th Rd) - Free Cole Hamels (Undrafted) - Free Justin Verlander (26th Rd) - Free Jered Weaver (Undrafted) - Free Jeremy Bonderman (14th Rd) - Free	Chris Young (17th Rd) - Free Carlos Guillen (19th Rd) - Free Chris Ray (18th Rd) - Free Adam Dunn (7th Rd) - Free Mark Teahan (Undrafted) - Free
2008
Ryan Howard (6th Rd) - 4th Rd Cole Hamels (Undrafted) - 21st Rd* Justin Verlander (26th Rd) - 20th Rd~ Jered Weaver (Undrafted) - 19th Rd^ Jeremy Bonderman (14th Rd) - 12th Rd Moose loses 4th, 12th, 19th, 20th, and 21st picks in a 26 round draft	Chris Young (17th Rd) - 15th Carlos Guillen (19th Rd) - 17th Chris Ray (18th Rd) - 16th Adam Dunn (7th Rd) - 5th Mark Teahan (Undrafted) - 21st Lucky loses 5th, 15th, 16th, 17th, and 21st Rd picks.

[/b][/tr]
[tr][td]2009[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ryan Howard (4th Rd) - 2nd Rd
Cole Hamels (21st Rd) - 19th
Justin Verlander (20th Rd) - 18th
Jered Weaver (19th Rd) - 17th
Jeremy Bonderman (12th Rd) - 10th
Moose loses 2nd, 10th, 17th, 18th, and 19th picks in a 26 round draft[/td]
[td]Chris Young (15th Rd) - 13th
Carlos Guillen (17th Rd) - 15th
Chris Ray (16th Rd) - 14th
Adam Dunn (5th Rd) - 3rd
Mark Teahan (21st) - 19th
Lucky loses 3rd, 13th, 14h, 15th, and 19th Rd picks.[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2010[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Ryan Howard (2nd Rd) - 1st Rd@
Cole Hamels (19th Rd) - 17th
Justin Verlander (18th Rd) - 16th
Jered Weaver (17th Rd) - 15th
Jeremy Bonderman (10th Rd) - 8th
Moose loses 1st, 8th, 15th, 16th, and 17th picks in a 26 round draft[/td]
[td]Chris Young (13th Rd) - 11th
Carlos Guillen (15th Rd) - 13th
Chris Ray (14th Rd) - 12th
Adam Dunn (3rd Rd) - 1st
Mark Teahan (19th) - 17th
Lucky loses 1st, 11th, 12h, 13th, and 17th Rd picks.[/td][/tr][/table]
*Since he was undrafted go back to the last round.
~Since there is no 26th Rd count 2 back from the last round. In this case that's the 19th in a 21 Rd draft.
^If there are 2 lost picks in the same round you move up one round. Since the 21st Rd pick is already lost as is the 20th this becomes the 19th.
@since the 1st Rd is as high as you can go it becomes the last one. This would be the last time you can keep this player.

Make sense? Simple enough? Numbers are debatable. If I wanted to drop Dunn as a keeper and plug in a new guy we'd just follow the same rules. And the same rules would apply across the board if a keeper were traded. All that counts is when and where a player was last drafted, not what team he was on.

Opinions?

[Lucky]

It also keeps in mind all the things we were thinking about last time around. The Restricted Free Agents are the past keepers. The only think I left out was the "Franchising" idea. We can do that if we want but this seems easier and pretty standard. If we did the Franchise thing then we'd just allow each owner to target 1 or 2 guys to not cost a pick for 1 or 2 years.

[Lucky]

TRIPLE POST!

mooseheadjack said:

oh, and I am cool with starting the draft so long as I can get my hand on a nifty draft sheet like I had last year

TSN finally took its 2006 draft kit down so I imagine we're getting close to them putting up their 2007. I'm guessing Feb 15th, which appears to be Opening Day for fantasy

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I'm ok with starting the draft now.

[DevSop]

The one thing I would add is going back to the "Franchise" player. I don't know if it's because the keeper leagues I've played in for the most part have little in the way of restrictions or whatever. But we should be able to classify a minimum of one person each season as a Franchise player. No draft picks lost to keep him, no limits as to how long you can keep him, no nothing with regards to him and your team as long as he's keeper eligible.

Based on the example above, for Moose, thatd be Howard if he wants and as long as he's classified as the Franchise guy, it'd never cost Moose a round to keep him. But once he declassifies him as that Franchise player, he can't be kept by Moose at all. So, if after 3 seasons, he's had enough of Howard and would like to change it to Hamels; Hamels won't cost any more rounds, but Howard's automatically in the draft pool. No one can pick him up, no one else could keep him until the next season and that's only if he's drafted in the keeper rounds.

I'd still prefer it to be two guys that could be "Franchised" but that may be too much with this system with the draft picks being used as punishment. I remember the NFL had a system a while back that used both Franchise and another term for a free-agent, but not sure of the details. We could use 2-3 rounds for the regular keepers, 0 rounds for the "#1 Franchise" and maybe 1 round for the "#2 Franchise"

And again, this may just be personal preference based on my history of keeper leagues where I'm guaranteed to keep David Wright and Mark Teixiera until the cows come home or the Phillies win a pennant.

[Lucky]

I don't mind the Franchise thing at all. But ideally I'd push for it to be 1 spot and there to be a limit on how many times you can franchise a player. Personal preference is all. I'm basically coming at this from the exact different side as you. It seems odd that Moose would keep Ryan Howard forever because he ended the 1st season with him. On the other hand if we make a system where (a) the first time he's a keeper he's free and (b) he can be franchised twice then that's 3 years Moose could have him no problem at all. He'd then have 3 more years where he'd cost him a pick, and only in the last year would that pick likely be one Howard might not be worth (in this case Howard's basically going top 3 in all mock drafts so he'd be worth it).

The example is a little off because everyone's free this year.

I'd be A-OK with that NFL system you suggested too. F1 costs no rounds, F2 costs a 1 round sip, everyone else costs a 2/3 round skip. I still definitely would prefer a limit on it though. We can go start a poll on that but I'd like to see it discussed a bit first so people to rush to judgement.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

The franchise idea sounds doable... although I have an idea without all the bells and whistles. You keep two players, period. No losing draft picks, no penalties, you can truly keep these two for as long as we do this or pick another two from that year's squad.

[Lucky]

Meh. I personally really don't like the idea of being able to keep someone forever but I'll live with it. And that looks like 2 votes for it already and I imagine most will prefer to be able to keep theirs forever. Think I'm gonna lose this one.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

But are you really going to want let's say A-Rod in 5 years?

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I think Moose should be allowed to keep Howard until the end of time if he wanted to. What's the big deal. I'd be in favor of one franchise guy that you can keep year after year. You still have to follow the rules by snagging them afetr round five and then get lucky that they turn into a superstar.

[Lucky]

Solly, A-rod's kind of a red herring. He's older and unavailable anyway. But is Ryan Howard a viable keeper in 5 years? Hell yeah. So are Hammels, Verlander, Bonderman, and Weaver. So are a couple of my guys. So are a couple of everyone's guys. If there are no penalties at all, who cares? If you don't even have 2 guys you want to franchise you should franchise them just to save the pick. The only reason you stop is if something better comes along.

I've said my peace. I'm gonna lose this one. I'll deal. I WOULD like us to limit this though. If you can franchise a guy until the end of time I'd rather it just be 1 guy. Maybe go with Dev's F1/F2 idea. But again, I'll deal if the group wants 2 unlimited.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

I could listen to F1/F2... I'm just worried we'll get 12 different options and we'll be like chickens running around with the heads cut off. My idea isn't the end-all, be-all; it's just something very simple without any complications.

[Lucky]

Well, if we went with that the outline I'm thinking it reads like this:

- 5 keepers.
- Noone drafted from Round 1-5 can be kept.
- 1st year keepers cost nothing.
- 2nd year keepers cost a draft pick 2/3 rounds higher than where they were selected.
- 1 player may be Franchised (F1) indefinitely to be kept without any loss of draft picks.
- 1 player may be given a second Franchise tag (F2). He will cost a draft pick 1/2 rounds higher than where he was selected.
- A player loses keeper elligibility by (a) costing a 1st Rd pick the year before or (b) having a Franchise tag taken off of him.

That looks like the combination of ideas. Is that too complicated?

I'd maybe suggest tossing the "1st year free" thing after this season. Keep it now because we didn't have it planned, but go right to the penalties/franchise rules after that. It would simplify the rules and limit things a bit. But whatever people like.

[DevSop]

I'd be okay with that outline for the rules. Again, I'm coming at it from the unlimited viewpoint because I am in a league where I have David Wright and Teixiera until I decide to get rid of them.

But the rounds thing seems to be the prevalent theory in keeper leagues I hear about and it's not a bad idea really. 1 so-called cornerstone, a 2nd franchise player, and the other 3 keepers being whatever you choose them to be. I like it.

[Mikey]

Just when I thought we were getting close to a unaminous decision as far as keepers and shit go... ya'll bring it up and tweak it again. I'm at the point where I REALLY don't give a shit and will agree to just about ANYTHING just to have something set. We've had... HOW LONG to nail this out and we're still throwing ideas around?

Draft: We can start it whenever. As far as I'm concerened, Kid's on the clock right now.

Keepers: Dev's Franchise idea is good. Keep one guy as long as you wish, as soon as you defranchise him, he goes back into the pool and you can't keep him. Personally, I don't think a second player with the same kind of deal is worth the hassle, not when we're keeping five guys a year anyway. There's a thread somewhere with some decent conversation on this very topic.

Minor League Draft: May 1, right?

Buy In: $25, right? Or has that been negotiated up to like $240 in the terms of the CBA I wasn't clued in on?

Personally, I say we put a poll up on any matters still hanging out there, and if you want your voice to be heard, vote by next Friday, and that will be that. We can start drafting Monday the 19th. But again, I really don't care. I've wasted too much creative energy thinking about some of this shit when it seems we're damn near back to square one.

Now pardon me, I need to go down a bottle of flu medication...

[Jack Quinn]

so, let me get this right (maybe) starting next year we can keep up to 7 players? 5 keepers and 2 potential franchises? Or is it still going to be five guys and you can franchise two of those guys and they can't be touched? (which kind of makes no sense if you are franchising them and losing draft picks - do you just fill positions after the draft with whatever is available then?)


EDIT - since most of us have IM maybe we should try and set aside a little time to hammer this out and make everyone (or everyone that wants to be involved happy) I know there is no RAW on monday and TNA is a retread, maybe we can meet then. I think I now understand why shit like the CBA takes so fucking long

[Lucky]

tarheelmike said:

I'm at the point where I REALLY don't give a shit and will agree to just about ANYTHING just to have something set. We've had... HOW LONG to nail this out and we're still throwing ideas around?

Personally, I say we put a poll up on any matters still hanging out there, and if you want your voice to be heard, vote by next Friday, and that will be that. We can start drafting Monday the 19th. But again, I really don't care. I've wasted too much creative energy thinking about some of this shit when it seems we're damn near back to square one.

Quoted for truth.

I know I'm like the master overthinker here but honestly? I've been doing this because I think it needs to get done. It just needs to get done. I'm well past the stage of wanting what I want. I just want a set of rules in place. And for all of us who keep debating this I'm also not sure if the folks not talking just don't care, just aren't listening, or hate everything that is happening and just want to stay out of it. I seriouslly agree with everything in Mike's post.

If I'm the new primary commish I'll be more than happy tomorrow PMing/u2uing you all and starting half a dozen polls for everything that NEEDS to be settled. And I'm all for just getting together on Monday night, locking the polls then, and starting the draft with a set of rules intact. I'm sure I'm Candidate #1 for making all of this more complicated than it had to be. But I assure you, I just want things to be fair and satisfactory to everyone. This thing is fun. Lets get past the bullshit and back to the fun.

Moose, I merely wrote that in a way that confused you. 5 keepers is all. 2 of them franchised. Or 1. I don't know. But 5 guys. I'm tired. If you franchise someone you don't lose a pick for that guy but you lose one for each non-franchised guy. Unless we do that F2 idea where you lose a pick but a lesser pick. Seriouslly tired.

I have no idea if I'm the commish now. If I am tell me and I'll force this issue tomorrow. Because this is like thread 6 discussing the same stuff. Another stickied "EVERYONE READ!" thread won't accomplish anything unless its really the important one.

[Lucky]

That was pissy sounding. Seriouslly. I just want to settle things and get the show started. If noone objects I'll gladly PM everyone and start a poll to settle the keeper rules once and for all.

(a) 1 of 5 keepers can be franchised and kept forever. The other 4 cost draft picks based on where they were drafted.
(b) In addition to the 1 Franchise 1 other of the 5 can be selected to receive lesser draft penalties.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

luckylopez said:

I have no idea if I'm the commish now. If I am tell me and I'll force this issue tomorrow.

You are. Pun is dealing with more important stuff and you're easily the most qualified and organized candidate... so let's finish this thing.