[Lucky]

Ok. We've got 2 weeks to the keeper deadline and there's still this issue standing. We have to figure out what the long term keeper deal is so that we don't screw it up now. The question is, how long can you keep a player? If Moose keeps Ryan Howard this season can he keep him for '08? And if so when must he stop?

There was a discussion about it in the Draft Order thread and you can go back and read it. Dev suggested a system that seems like a nice compromise between those of us who want costs and limits on keepers and he who didn't. You should really read the 10 posts or so in that thread to get the whole conversation but here's the rundown of the proposd deal.

I still disagree, but I'm gonna get outvoted here anyway. I just think that by definition, a keeper league, implies a length of time...not 1 or 2 seasons. If we want to use real world comparisons...a player is a team's property for I believe a minimum of 3 full seasons before arbitration kicks in and at that point it's not a huge penalty/money to keep the guy for the first 2-3 years of arbitration. In our scenario, Howard would be free for 07 & 08, he'd cost a 10th-12th in 09, 6th-8th in 10 and then a 1st-4th in 11.

GoVols voiced concerns but hasn't told us what they are. I'll drop him a PM/U2U but if anyone talks to him feel free to ask him to come over and fill us in. Or just to give us his opinion. We really should get this settled.

That goes for any other problems you have too. The Draft. The Keeper System. Pun's addressed the fee/payouts. The trading system. If you don't like something say it. Past 10/31 its going to be harder to change things.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Instead of arbitration and changing draft picks, why can't we establish something like after 3 years, everyone goes back into the pool and we start over? Let's face it, the chance of all 12 of us sticking with this long-term is pretty damn slim and a re-do every 3 years would be an easy way to attract new owners.

Thoughts?

[Attitude Adjuster]

I think in three years, there will be very few players that we also wanted to keep this year. I say just let time take it's toll on players. If someone wantrs to keep A-Rod for his entire career, somewhere down the line they're going to get screwed and not keep him the next year. Or trade him. Or something. I don't think you have to worry about anyone owning one great player for his entire career.

[GoVols]

My concern with long-tern keepers is that we need a tier system. I like the three year rule.

My idea was this: Every player is available to keep. Each team gets to keep three players.

Guys picked in rounds 1-5 can be kept for 1 year and you lose the corresponding pick in the following draft.

Rounds 6-27: We each keep two guys. 1 for 2 years and 1 for 3 years. You don't lose your draft pick, because it would impossible to keep track of all that.

I'll use myself as the example.

From Rounds 1-5, I would keep Victor Martinez. I have his rights until the end of 2007. In the 2007 draft I lose my 3rd round pick.

From rounds 6-27 I would keep Grady Sizemore for 3 years and Mike Mussina for 2. I would not lose any picks. If I trade or drop either of these guys I can designate another player from my team as my keeper, but they must fit the rules. And the time period stays the same.

After 2007, Victor Martinez goes back into the draft. I have Mussina for 1 more year and Grady for 2 more years. I can designate a different player from my first 5 rounds as my keeper for the 2008 season.

This way no one can keep a guy like Pujols for 5 years, but you can get a young up and comer like Ryan Howard for 4 full years.

If we do something like this, then the new guys can pick from the pool that's left over. Starting next year we would desinate each team as a franchise and the rosters are set if a new owner comes in then they have to use the roster that was abandoned.

And if we really want to get into it, we could add a draft pick each year of 1 minor league player that you keep the rights to for 5 years.

All of this is meant to reward good late draft picks. Let me know what you think.

[Mikey]

First prob I have with Vols' idea is that many of us, myself included, approached the trading deadline this year under the impression that it was gonna be the top five rounds that we couldn't keep. I traded Andruw Jones and K-Rod specifically to free myself of their spots on my roster in which I knew - or THOUGHT - I could not carry over to next season. I also don't think Moose would've moved Pujols had we been under Vols' idea... even if he turned out okay by getting Howard in return. Needless to say, if we don't use the five round rule we - I ASSUMED - agreed upon ages ago, I will be pissed.

I don't see how what me and Lucky threw together throws everything out of whack, but if you wanna put a limit on keeping the "good players," I can see why. It don't really matter to me though, just so long as I get my five guys this year.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

We could also do this:

Keep the five for '07 and start from scratch in '08 with firmly established keeper rules in place for future seasons.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Personally I think a keeper is a keeper. I don't see the problem with holding onto a player year after year. It is still only a small percentage of your total players anyway. I think anybody after round five is fair game and if you designate him as a keeper this season then you are free to do the same in each year thereafter. Now rounds 1-5 will be off limits again this year for keeping next year.

[Lucky]

I've never done keeper so I don't know the protocol. It just feels weird to me to be able to keep a player for as long as you like. And if you do things right 4 of your 5 keepers could be permanent by Year 3 or so. It just feels weird to me. But I'll go with what the majority like.

Needless to say I like the Mike/Dev/Me scenario.

- Keep the existing rules for '07 draft.
- In '08 protect the first 4 rounds as "Can't Keep" and protect all keepers as "Restricted Free Agents."
- You can "Franchise" 2-3 of the Restricted Free Agents. The rest go into the "Can't Keep" pool.
- We set up some kind of limit on how many times you can Franchise someone. And possibly setup penalties past certain years (as described in Dev's scenario).

And I echo Mike's problems with Vols' scenario. I dropped a couple of top 5 rounders because I didn't think I could keep them. And lots of people traded them. I'm not a big fan of starting over in '08 since it basically negates last season and any of the good moves made.

I'd like a limit. It doesn't have to be as complicated as our scenario but I like trying to recreate the Arb/Free Agency system in baseball. Plus I don't think its all that complicated. But obviouslly I've out thought a few things. If you make sure to protect the top rounds and put SOME kind of limit on how long players can be kept I'm happy. I can live with no limit and (as Mike said) I'll be fine as long as I get the 5 I thought I was getting this season.

[Lucky]

So anyone have an idea on how we settle this? Discussion seems to be done (or noone cares). Just over a week before the Keeper deadline.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

luckylopez said:

- Keep the existing rules for '07 draft.
- In '08 protect the first 4 rounds as "Can't Keep" and protect all keepers as "Restricted Free Agents."
- You can "Franchise" 2-3 of the Restricted Free Agents. The rest go into the "Can't Keep" pool.
- We set up some kind of limit on how many times you can Franchise someone. And possibly setup penalties past certain years (as described in Dev's scenario).

This sounds OK to me.

[Mikey]

fsolomon75 said:

luckylopez said:

- Keep the existing rules for '07 draft.
- In '08 protect the first 4 rounds as "Can't Keep" and protect all keepers as "Restricted Free Agents."
- You can "Franchise" 2-3 of the Restricted Free Agents. The rest go into the "Can't Keep" pool.
- We set up some kind of limit on how many times you can Franchise someone. And possibly setup penalties past certain years (as described in Dev's scenario).

This sounds OK to me.

That makes three of us.

[Attitude Adjuster]

I'll be the fourth vote.

[Jack Quinn]

Sure why the hell not

As long as I get to keep what I planned for this season in '07, I am cool. As for next year, I will worry about that in September

[Pun]

I'm in.....

[dragonmak]

sounds good to me

[Lucky]

7 out of 12. That's obviouslly a consensus if we were just voting but if anyone doesn't like it speak up.

[Mikey]

And speak up quick.

[Lucky]

Seeing as how its 10/30 can I presume this is now decided? 7 out of 12 would have been a positive vote anyway. Pun? Ruling?