[DevSop]

Oh joy, another Batman show, its #29 Batman: TAS up against a show with rape, murder, pedophelia, necrophelia, amazing acting and twists & turns, #36 Special Victims Unit.


#29. BATMAN:THE ANIMATED SERIES




vs.


#36. LAW & ORDER: SPECIAL VICTIMS UNIT

[Stu]

devilsoprano said:

Oh joy, another Batman show, its #29 Batman: TAS up against a show with rape, murder, pedophelia, necrophelia, amazing acting and twists & turns, #36 Special Victims Unit.

You do know the A-Team got into this showdown as well you know? And from what I remember, that didn't regularly include "rape, murder, pedophelia, necrophelia" which incidentally doesn't necessarilly mean a show is good drama.
BTAS is worthy of the nom because despite being a saturday morning cartoon, it's visual style was unlike any other show of that type at the time, and as wikipedia puts it better than I could:

Additionally, Batman: TAS was one of the first truly "serious" American on-going animated series in some time. Prior to that, most animated fare had been lighthearted and bright, even if it was action oriented. Batman: TAS brought a darkness and seriousness to animation that was almost unheard of at the time, and was more akin to an animated drama than a "cartoon", per se. The storylines dealt with more mature themes, there was no slapstick, although some episodes were touched with sophisticated humor, and the soundtrack itself was more akin to a film soundtrack (owing in part, no doubt, to the desire to make it have a similar feel to the Danny Elfman score of the two Burton films). The animation quality itself tended to be much smoother, with a higher framerate than the vast majority of animated series prior to its premiere.

The show had villains who actually had real dramatic reasons for their villainy. The whole idea of Mister Freeze for instance having a wife who was cryogenically frozen will an illness and he was trying to get the money to cure her/get revenge on the guys who put him in his suit all came from the show, as until then he was just a criminal scientist who got frozen by his own weapon backfiring.
Then there's how they did Two Face's origin properly, being a guy with a supressed alternate personality that finally comes out when he's scarred by mobsters, giving him a dependance on a coin flip to make all major decisions in his life,which I remember Batman once exploiting by switching it with a coin that kept landing on it's side, which made the poor bastard have a nervous breakdown.
Not mention this all stars a guy who was so traumatised by his parents being killed in front of him as a boy he developped an obsession with fighting crime.

[DevSop]

Look, I'm not saying Batman is a bad show, I'm just so sick and tired of shows like this doing better than they have any right to do. And I'm not sure I said that Special Vicitms plot points automatically made it a better show than something like the A-Team, but what I am saying is that Christopher Merloni and Mariska Harigtay handle it with some of the best acting on network television. And while some of the twists are twists for twists-sake the show does deal with a ton of issues and it's always a show that will keep you on the edge of your seat.

Batman may be a great show, and I won't even get into the Live Action Drama > Animated Drama automatically debate. It's just Special Victims is a really good show and I'm sick of the Batman/Star Wars/Animated/Comic contingent doing better than it has any right to do.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Against the original Law & Order this would be an easy choice for me to go Law & Order. But I've never seen SVU and I'm not a big fan of all the spinoffs. It seems lazy to me. I voted Batman.

[Lucky]

The spinoffs actually strike me as different shows in their own rights. SVU and CI have their own spins. They're more character driven and care a lot more about the cops and lawyers and overlapping stories. CI is all about the procedure and that weird D'onfrio character. SVU is all about the high drama of these fucked up cases and the toll they take on the people forced to live them. Plus there are a ton of "Holy Shit!" moments in it.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I can't comment on the quality of the spinoffs. I rarely watch the originals and never have given the spinoffs a chance. I'm just calling it lazy for slapping the Law & Order or CSI tag on it to attract viewers rather then trying to start over. They might be a lot better but I wouldn't know because I don't watch.

[Lucky]

I get what you're saying. I have that reaction a lot too and I basically presume it of the CSI shows. I only watched SVU because its original cast appealed to me. Otherwise I probably would have dismissed it as a spinoff. On the other hand I basically like the idea of a Law and Order Universe where the shows can have crossover appeal and Chris Noth, Richard Belzar, or Angie Harmon can go from one to the other. But I'm weird and get VERY mad when I recognize a new cast member as an old character. The current ADA on SVU was tried for rape on that show a couple of years before the character was created. That pisses me off.

[Stu]

devilsoprano said:

Look, I'm not saying Batman is a bad show, I'm just so sick and tired of shows like this doing better than they have any right to do. And I'm not sure I said that Special Vicitms plot points automatically made it a better show than something like the A-Team, but what I am saying is that Christopher Merloni and Mariska Harigtay handle it with some of the best acting on network television. And while some of the twists are twists for twists-sake the show does deal with a ton of issues and it's always a show that will keep you on the edge of your seat.

Batman may be a great show, and I won't even get into the Live Action Drama > Animated Drama automatically debate. It's just Special Victims is a really good show and I'm sick of the Batman/Star Wars/Animated/Comic contingent doing better than it has any right to do.

Fair enough, I suppose. I disagree with "Live Action > Animated" as a FACT in theory, though I admit in practice it's mostly the case, as most animation isn't usually done as drama for adults.

[Krydor]

Abstain, also. The cartoon or the spinoff? Neither.

[creepy]

I agree with MKid here.

Also, I like the cases in L&O. I don't want to watch these shows for the cops involved and their stories. The original doesn't do it that much. And that D'Onfrio guy bugs me enough not to watch.

[Lucky]

This isn't the D'Onfrio show.

[salmonjunkie]

devilsoprano said:

Look, I'm not saying Batman is a bad show, I'm just so sick and tired of shows like this doing better than they have any right to do.

Whatever. Animation aside, this series is one of the deepest, most mature cartoons of all time. Quite possibly deeper and more mature than half of the shows on this showdown. And better written, too.

And I'm not sure I said that Special Vicitms plot points automatically made it a better show than something like the A-Team, but what I am saying is that Christopher Merloni and Mariska Harigtay handle it with some of the best acting on network television.

Same for Batman. The voice over acting is THE BEST voice over acting that has ever been on network TV cartoons. Watch enough of the eps to see some fantastic acting by Mark Hamill, Kevin Conroy, Bob Hastings, Ed Asner, Adrienne Barbau, John Glover, Ron Perlman... Treat Williams has been on the show, and the direct-to-video movies (which doesn't quite count for this showdown, but i'm making a point here) includes Dana Delaney, Melissa Joan Hart, Henry Rollins, Angie Harmon, Michael Rosenbaum, Kyra Sedgewick, Kelly Ripa, and more. The acting is absolutely top notch in this series. (voice over work is why I can't fucking watch anime TV shows. It's always terrible). It's also telling that when it debuted, it aired AFTER the kids cartoons ended at 5pm.

the show does deal with a ton of issues and it's always a show that will keep you on the edge of your seat.

Same for Batman.

I'm sick of the Batman/Star Wars/Animated/Comic contingent doing better than it has any right to do.

Batman is head over heels over Star Wars, and better than pretty much any comic and animated TV show (maybe except Justice League, but that was an action show). It has every right. This is an Emmy-award winning show. This wasn't just silly kids stuff.

Yeah, I'm a comic book fan, but I can remove myself from that to recognize that Batman was a superb show, that people enjoyed even though they didn't read comics. This isn't me voting it because it'd be fun to push with a wink and a nod. This is me voting because it was an excellent show. I mean, I won't vote it over Wonder Years (which could be my favorite drama of all time), but over the deluge of crime dramas I couldn't give two shits about, easily.

[DevSop]

Everything I've said never denied that it was possible Batman is a terrific animated drama. My main point was I truly don't believe a good animated drama could be better than a good live-action drama. Could Batman be better than the shitty dramas? Of course it can, and it probably is, but Special Victims isn't shitty at all. It's one of the better "crime dramas" on television and that's because it's not 100% procedural. Yes each episode basically has its begginning, middle, and end but the character element of Special Victims is why I can watch it and I can't stand watching the original or even Criminal Intent.

And I won't be upset if Batman wins here, but I'm afraid of it beginning a steamroll effect where it starts beating shows it has no business beating.

[Lucky]

I basically don't believe a good fantasy or sci-fi can be better than a good drama rooted in reality. Doesn't change the fact that that's PURELY subjective opinion on my part because I have a basic bias against fantasy/sci-fi.

I did vote for SVU because I do agree. I like it more than the procedurals and more than the serials because it walks a nice line between the two. The characters matter but the focus of the show remains the crime and never shifts.

But I've disagreed on your animated bias since you first complained about this. Its opinion and you're entitled to it. God knows it annoyed the fuck out of me that all the grossout and juvenile comedy films were advancing. That the sketch shows and cartoons were the only ones advancing in the tv comedy showdown. But that's just my personal biases rising to the surface and going against the majority opinion.

This board has an appreciation for animation. And we haven't been pulling for Thundercats. Its been basically the same Emmy winning critically acclaimed stuff from the same creator with the same iconic characters the entire time. Its just turns out its a decade long library that has spanned many showdowns. We love Bruce Timm.

I don't get on you for pushing Judd Apatow across 3 showdowns.

[DevSop]

I think it was only 2 showdowns. I didn't push hard for Knocked Up or Superbad. And I didn't even push that hard in the comedy showdown because I didn't think Freaks was THAT funny, and in general I won't be pushing hard for Freaks here. I like Apatow's stuff, but if you want to get on me for pushing a specific person, Whedon would be a better bet.

[Lucky]

Whedon would be good. I guess Tex was more the Apatow guy? And then there's Solly with his weird crush on all Italian Americans.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Actually I have a crush on all Italians AND Apatow.

[williamssl]

What is an Apatow?

I like Freaks and Geeks the show and all, but don't get me confused with any of this other stuff, whatever it is.

[salmonjunkie]

Will someone vote for Batman already?!?

[DevSop]

Closing these polls either late tonight or early tomorrow, make sure you vote if you need to.

[DevSop]

Special Victims Unti squeaks this one out to make me a bit happier about the showdowns in general and moves onto round 2.