[Mikey]

The Samoan Submission Machine defeated Jushin Liger with ease. The King of Harts pulled the biggest upset of the first round by knocking off Sting. Joe can’t kill Owen here, cause Owen’s, well, already dead – which has to give some sort of edge to the Rocket. Can Joe overcome this plothole in the storyline, or will Owen 3:16 hold true?

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Tough decision and I need swaying. If I factor Joe's Main Event potential then it would be him with ease. But has Joe's body of work been enough already to pass Owen? Perhaps. I don't rate Owen as high as many. I think he is looked back more fondly because of his tragic circumstances. He was a midcarder but a very serviceable one who was great for the business.

[Riot Act]

Owen was much more than "serviceable". My vote for him has absoluely nothing to do with his tragic circumstances but rather how much he entertained me. He was one of the greatest annoying, chicken-shit heels and as far as workrate goes, I'd rather watch him over Joe anyway.

[creepy]

I think I agree with Riot on this one.

[Lucky]

Riot's just voting Owen because all Canadians are inherently preferential towards their countrymen!!!!!!!

NATIONALIST!!!

I like Owen, I just think Joe is better. He's a better worker in a better industry. Owen was something unique and exciting in his period of American wrestling, but then came a rush of guys perfecting the style. Owen got unlucky that he never got to work with Benoit, Malenko, Angle, Booker, Saturn, Eddie, and much of the Monday Night War guys that helped change wrestling. His career would have had more highlights and higher standing. But Joe also exists in a different industry and became a standard bearer in a much more skilled and well rounded "sport" where the fans have become more jaded. Owen was flooring us with Enziguris, a move that has become a standard transitional move now.

Which again, isn't meant to be an attack on Owen. I love the dude. But he was a very good worker in a largely bad working era who played an amusing whiny heel. His best work was probably in tag action, but that may be because he didn't get the opportunity to truly shine. Fate robbed his legacy, most likely. Joe's not yet found his peak (hopefully) and half of his career has happened on a very small stage of ROH. I think his career plays better against Owen than it would many of the longer running guys in this tourney, but if most of the field of voters hasn't seen even half of it, what are you gonna do? Joe's got more potential for greatness by pure virtue of still being around, but I also think he was better positioned and skilled to make that top level than Owen ever was. But we'll never know.

[DevSop]

Don't forget this is a board of morons who somehow thought Owen > Sting, so I have no hope for anything other than a Austin, HHH, Rock, Flair final 4 is it's possible.

[Mikey]

devilsoprano said:

I have no hope for anything other than a Austin, HHH, Rock, Flair final 4 is it's possible.

And other than HHH, what would be so wrong with that?

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Triple H is great and should be there. I'd leave Austin out personally. But I get it that most people love him.

In the end the winner of this gets to be slaughtered by Rock (and rightly so).

[Lucky]

I left out the part of my rant where I say that final 8 is probably all going to be WWF/E guys, the majority of the Sweet 16 probably will be, and the Final Four is absolutely going to be. And how I'm basically not going to give a shit and stop paying attention. Because really, that's just a case of my tastes and experiences and the fact that I'm a bigger WCW, TNA, and ECW fan then I ever was a WWF/E fan.

It doesn't matter because Owen beating Sting was such a bigger joke and travesty then anyone could possibly think him beating Joe is.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

One more quick thing to add. I want Triple H in the final four but I think HBK will beat him. There seems to be enough anti-Triple H feelings to keep him from advancing too much further.

Back on track though. I'm still not really decided on this. After the arguments I'm leaning towards Owen. Oddly enough it was Lucky's comments praising Owen that might be the biggest reason for this.

[jmd]

Granted, I wasn't here for the Owen/Sting face-off, and I'm willing to admit bias being that Owen is my favourite guy of all time and I'd vote for him over anyone, but why is that such a travesty?

Are we deciding on the basis of what the guy has accomplished, or what he is/was capable of doing? I fully believe that if Owen had been given a main event run beyond his title feud with Bret, he'd have done well with it. (Especially in the period after he broke Austin's neck, that could have easily shot him to the top of the card if played right. It would have required a different unfolding of the Screwjob, of course, but I could easily see Bret dropping the title to Owen, who then tries to hold off HBK before losing to Austin at XIV. If you played up the Owen-driver, that'd would have been a gangbusters main event.)

[Mikey]

And for all the all-WWF final four or eight... none of you REALLY think that Flair is going to ROLL to the finals on the grounds of his WWF run, do you?

[Lucky]

metallikid said:

I'm still not really decided on this. After the arguments I'm leaning towards Owen. Oddly enough it was Lucky's comments praising Owen that might be the biggest reason for this.

God damn it! I was pointing out that Owen just stood out because he had bad peers and would have been less impressive if we had watched him alongside Benoit, Eddie, and Angle! HE SUCKED! I HATE HIM! HE RAPED BABIES!

Joe is a standard bearer in modern wrestling. Regarded as such in North America and Japan. A top 5 performer in the world on the list of most everyone (who has been exposed to a lot of his work). He was so hot in ROH that he basically elevated them to the level they're at as king of the indies. He was so hot in TNA that people felt he could be the big thing that could elevate them and when TNA botched it it angered and disillusioned so many fans that most of them now don't believe he'll ever be given a fair chance and think TNA is incapable of doing anything right. His first match with Angle scored numbers that TNA has never come close to otherwise. He's one of the fastest and most agile big men in wrestling history, not "fast and agile" like Vader. "Fast and agile" like a CW. And not like Mike Awesome could jump off the top rope. Like he can pull a move or kick out of nowhere and react and move like a man half his size.

And he's an insane bad ass.


And he's funny too. But TNA for some reason decided to Youtube the END of the Peep Show segment where Joe kicks Christian and AJ's asses but not the beginning where he's hilarious.




EDIT:

JMD, I'd say Owen beating Sting was a travesty because Sting is an icon. Because this group pushed Dusty on the grounds that he was Flair's great foil and then ignored that Sting did the same thing for the next decade AND was the great foil for the nWo. And yet Sting couldn't make it out of the 1st round falling to a midcard act that spent most of his career in tag teams and as a buffoon screaming "nugget" or carrying around Slammies. Owen was great but perspective is in order. And while I think Owen and Joe have comparable careers Sting should have been granted the same respect shown to the other legends of the business.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Plus Sting winning last round would have made this choice easier. Sting > Joe

[salmonjunkie]

Is Sting won the last round, I'd be voting Joe. And I voted for Joe this time around too.

With Sting, I had to vote Owen. Owen, at one point, was one of my favorites. Sting has never been one of my favorites. The dude's an icon, yes. He did much more for the industry as the hero vs. Ric Flair and the nWo story, yes. But both times, I got drawn because of his adversary much more than for Sting himself (that was also why I voted against Kerry Von Erich - it was the Freebirds that made that storyline for me). The last time I can even tell you that I really liked Sting was when he was beach-blond WHOOO Sting. Well, his brunette days as a tag team with a heel Lex Luger was really good, too. But I really was genuinely entertained with Owen Hart pretty much the moment he turned heel. And when Bret got the screwjob and left WWE and Owen came out to attack DX, I was elated, thinking "Finally, Owen is where he deserves to be" thinking he would feud with HBK. Of course, he got demoted to HHH because HBK had Austin to feud with (and I'll have to say that was the right move), but still. I voted Owen completely out of bias. Not WWE bias. Just Owen bias.

And that's why I'm voting for Samoa Joe. I am completely biased towards Joe in this matchup. Samoa Joe is just fucking awesome. If you like workrate, my god, Joe is just devestating in the ring. A guy that size yet so agile and quick. Every match he's in is good, whether it's a main event that's back and forth, or a pummelling squash. The guy just portrays vicious - despite being a pretty average looking fat guy. And he can work the mic. He's got this great character who's all business, no bullshit, and hardly ever over-the-top. He's almost like an early Stone Cold Steve Austin, or even an early Batista.

If anyone has the "it" factor, it's Samoa Joe. If TNA is going to be successful, it's going to be be because of this guy. (with some help from Angle, Christian, AJ, and Curry Man)

Funny, this poll is mostly based on potential. I think a lot of people who voted Owen vote it based on the potential of what his legacy could have been if he had not died. I also think that a lot of people voting for Joe are basing it on potential of what he will do for TNA in the next 5-10 years.

Vote Joe.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

The Chinaman convinced me... I'm voting Joe.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I think he might convince me also. Since both have half bodies of work that I think are equal then maybe I should vote on potential. Do I think Joe's future is better then what Owen's future would have been had he not tragically died? The answer for me is yes. I'm now leaning towards Joe.

[creepy]

(Edit: From last to Lucky)


I don't remember if I ever reasoned why I don't put Sting in the same category as Dusty. To keep it short, By the time Sting rolled around, Flair and the Horsemen won me over with their badassity. Sting just annoyed me. I never got his appeal other than that he was the guy we were told to cheer for instead of reacting to what happened in the angles.



I wanted Dusty to succeed against the Horsemen, whereas I would have preferred the heels to beat Sting. He seemed average in every regard to me.

[DevSop]

And we've come to the conclusion you're an idiot...

[Lucky]

creepyjackalopeeye said:

(Edit: From last to Lucky)


I don't remember if I ever reasoned why I don't put Sting in the same category as Dusty. To keep it short, By the time Sting rolled around, Flair and the Horsemen won me over with their badassity. Sting just annoyed me. I never got his appeal other than that he was the guy we were told to cheer for instead of reacting to what happened in the angles.



I wanted Dusty to succeed against the Horsemen, whereas I would have preferred the heels to beat Sting. He seemed average in every regard to me.

And that sounds to me like an apt description of Dusty. The guy they told us to cheer for to beat the Horsemen. Decidely average (if even that). Loved the Horsemen already.

Personally I flat out disagree with the Sting stuff. For as much as Dusty and Flair are such a heated rivalry and rich history Flair and Sting always seem to think of each as other as their better opponents. Probably a lot of that has to do with Flair making Sting in a GREAT match. Personally I think Sting's history with Flair and the Horsemen is richer and has a lot more twists to it (although I could have just missed a lot of Dusty). I think that's natural because Dusty was part of regional touring wrestling and Sting was part of national TV wrestling. Angle had to move faster and have more story to them instead of just having the same match in every region for 3 months. Sting was WCW's Hogan as far as I was concerned (from a presence idea, not ringwork or character). Kids loved him and he was the heart and soul of WCW that might as well have been Captain America.

And that's why the nWo angle was so awesome. Because WCW doubted him when he had given them no reason to. Their paranoia got the best of them and the nWo took advantage. Sting fought alongside them but when his best friend lost faith that was enough. Sting came to War Games to help WCW in the battle he promised to help in (even when they thought he had betrayed them), and then he was done. He had proven himself to WCW but the fact that he had to when he had to and his word wasn't enough broke his heart and made WCW not worth fight for. His soul darkened and he returned as "the Crow" to seek revenge on the nWo for corrupting his image and taking WCW and his identity from him. And he still could not forgive WCW.

I'm watching some '95 WCW now and I just watched Arn vs Flair with Pillman turning and joining up with Arn. I can't wait to see Flair beg Sting to help him, Sting KNOW its a mistake and that he can't trust Flair, but being too good a man to abandon the Nature Boy. And then Flair once again stabbing him in the back and Sting knowing he only had himself to blame for trusting the Dirtiest Player in the Game.

Hey, you don't like Sting, that's fine. I don't like Hogan. Don't much care for Rock. Dusty is very little to me. But legends and icons are legends and icons. And it annoys the crap out of me that Sting doesn't get that respect because he's a WCW Icon and Legend.

"Its Andre!"

"Its Hogan!"

"Its Dusty!"

"Its Flair!"

"Never really liked Sting."

"Its Rock!"

"Its Austin!"


He deserved better., DAMNIT!

EDIT: And I can not be shaken from this because for the last 24 hours I've been humming "The Man Called Sting" to myself.

[punk/core]

I voted Owen. Joe is good and all, but I've only been watching him since he debuted in TNA, which is less than three years ago. Owen entertained me for A LOT longer than that.

Plus, there's no way I'm gonna vote on what might happen in the future. In the next ten years, Joe might go on to become one of the greatest champs the sport has ever seen. Next month, he might go home and hang himself. Who the hell knows?

[salmonjunkie]

luckylopez said:

creepyjackalopeeye said:

And it annoys the crap out of me that Sting doesn't get that respect because he's a WCW Icon and Legend.

I'd probably respect him more if he didn't do commercials for Jaguar automobiles.

Oops. Wrong Sting.


JOE'S GONNA KILL YOU!

[National Champion Chris Cole]

This is really a great matchup. It was tied 6-6, 8-8, and now 10-10.

[Jack Quinn]

yeah I never really got the Sting love, and I was a fan of NWA/WCW, he always kind of annoyed me too.


And I liked Owen, but I think Joe has already far surpassed what Owen could do. This is another one of those matches that I really wish I could see. Its a shame, another one gone too soon.

[Tommy]

Owen was a midcarder who was only over because of his brother (another discussion entirely because Bret was boring as fuck)

I don't understand the Owen love. Yeah, he's dead. Shoulda clipped the harness. Just because he's dead doesn't make him a great wrestler. The fact that a perrenial Main eventer like Sting who had legendary feuds with Flair and the nWo lost to a midcarder who's famous for saying "nugget" ensure that my vote goes against Owen the rest of the way.