[Demko]

I have some issues with the Undertaker's new finishing move, the gogoplata. Someone please explain to me how it is considered legal in a WWE ring. It is an obvious blatant choke which cuts off the air supply, which should only be given a 5-count at maximum, and he should almost surely not be able to cause a submission with this move.

And don't even get me started on how the referee should stop looking to see if the opponent is going to submit, and START counting Taker's pin, because his shoulders are CLEARLY on the mat when the move is performed.

How does a FACE win a match at Wrestlemania with a blatantly illegal hold?

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I didn't see Mania. Do you have a picture or a video? Is this the same move as the triangle choke that he used against Angle a few years back at No Way Out?

[Mr Tom]

I'm not keen how all his victims (save for Edge) start bleeding from the mouth either. Does that not make the ref think "hang on a minute..."?

[Demko]

It's not exactly the triangle choke he used to use. He's modified it, causing pressure on the opponent's trachea with the hard part of his shin.

Here's the vid from WMXXIV. He locks in the submission at around the 4:50 mark:



And here's a link to the Wikipedia entry on the Gogoplata:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gogoplata

ETA: Can't figure out how to use the YouTube code, or the Hyperlink code. :-P

ETA2:

Apr 4, 2008 13:25:32 GMT -5 Mr Tom said:

I'm not keen how all his victims (save for Edge) start bleeding from the mouth either. Does that not make the ref think "hang on a minute..."?

You said '(save for Edge)'. He bled just like everyone else.

[Mr. Dashbee]

I didn't think the match at 'Mania was going to end when the triangle was locked in because 'Taker's shoulders were down. All they had to was have Edge make the cover, and have UT turn to the side, and then continue with the tap-out. And if the pain was so unbearable, Edge would have tapped on 'Taker's leg, not by slapping the mat.

Ok, I'll go back to suspending disbelief now...

[jetskid48]

Is it considered a choke hold if its not hands or an arm around the neck?

And even so, I think it's overblown to care that he uses a move like this because we live in a world where people don't get disqualified for putting people through the announcer table and countouts only exist when it's needed to extend a feud.

Although, big plus for actually figuring out the name of the move. Even has a cool name.

[Demko]

Fair enough on the suspension of disbelief... I dunno... I guess it just seems more uh... obvious in this case. Like they're beating you over the head with the fact that Taker is blatantly choking out his opponent.

And no, I would think it would be considered a choke hold if the possibility exist to cut off a person's oxygen supply, no matter whether it's done with an arm, a leg, whatever.

[Fire-Babe]

Apr 4, 2008 15:14:13 GMT -5 Demko said:

And no, I would think it would be considered a choke hold if the possibility exist to cut off a person's oxygen supply, no matter whether it's done with an arm, a leg, whatever.

Especially since I have recent memory of someone...Melina I think? doing some sort of sideways tarantula on the ropes that was effectively choking her opponent with Melina's legs and getting the 5 count (letting go at 4.5 of course).

But then Show choked out Colin in ECW Tuesday night, with NO count and won the match, so maybe there was a rule change around the Thursday before WM?

[50 more minutes 'til freedom.]

[jetskid48]

Apr 4, 2008 17:10:49 GMT -5 Fire-Babe said:

Especially since I have recent memory of someone...Melina I think? doing some sort of sideways tarantula on the ropes that was effectively choking her opponent with Melina's legs and getting the 5 count (letting go at 4.5 of course).

Using the ropes may be the reason why she was getting the count.

But then Show choked out Colin in ECW Tuesday night, with NO count and won the match, so maybe there was a rule change around the Thursday before WM?

Million Dollar Dream/Cobra Clutch was used, basically, before he threw Delaney.

[Mr. Dashbee]

Apr 4, 2008 15:14:13 GMT -5 Demko said:

And no, I would think it would be considered a choke hold if the possibility exist to cut off a person's oxygen supply, no matter whether it's done with an arm, a leg, whatever.

I think we can chalk that one up to the influence of MMA on pro wrestling. 15 years ago, if a wrestler tapped on the mat, he was just in pain. He still had to submit be telling the ref or by shaking his head yes when the ref asked.

At ROH Final Battle 2005, the World title match was Bryan Danielson vs. Naomichi Marufuji. About 1/4 way into the match, Danielson was going for asurfboard and Marufuji slapped the mat in pain. The crowd automatically started yelling at the ref b/c Marufuji had tapped. Even Danielson sarcastiaclly yelled out "he tapped, ref!"

That's why I find it so strange to see someone tap to a figure four. For so many years it was just a traditional submission.

[Fire-Babe]

Apr 4, 2008 17:17:57 GMT -5 jetskid48 said:

Apr 4, 2008 17:10:49 GMT -5 Fire-Babe said:

Especially since I have recent memory of someone...Melina I think? doing some sort of sideways tarantula on the ropes that was effectively choking her opponent with Melina's legs and getting the 5 count (letting go at 4.5 of course).

Using the ropes may be the reason why she was getting the count.

Yes, that's probably true.

Million Dollar Dream/Cobra Clutch was used, basically, before he threw Delaney.

I know. I watched it twice, as I do all ECWs when I'm recapping. [kayfabe on]It still rendered him unconscious, rather than being purely a submission move of extreme discomfort. hence, choke.[kayfabe off].

[Batman]

Yeah, a sleeper hold is not the same as a chokehold. Chokeholds cut off oxygen to the lungs by constricting the trachea, and have always been illegal. Sleepers cut off oxygen to the brain by constricting the carotid artery and have always been legal. Undertaker's finisher is not really either, it's meant to cause a tap-out by causing pain to the throat.

Which of these things is going on is always up to the refs discretion (since he has the best view. Although occasionally an announcer will claim that the ref is blind and "that's a blatant choke!")

It's also up to the ref's discretion if the shoulders are all the way down or not. Y'know?

[Mr. Dashbee]

I thought more about the MMA influence.

Think about it...

Of choking someone out without the assistance of a rope or another object is legal in the real fighting sport, why would it be illegal in the fake fighting sport?

[Fire-Babe]

Okay, that's a decent explanation. In karate we treat the sleeper the same as other chokes.

[jetskid48]

Just to go back to the unconcious part, Austin went unconcious at WM 13 while in the Sharpshooter instead of tapping out. If we're talking about submission's that put people out, Sharpshooter isn't really one of them, but Austin got knocked out from pain, possible the pressure around Delaney's neck/head knocked him out.

[Mr. Dashbee]

You know, if they actually referenced something like the Austin-Bret WM13 finish on commentary, I'd mark out like a little kid during Cena's entrance.

Wrestling is so rich in history, and it's largely ingored during today's broadcasts.

[jetskid48]

Isn't it usually non-WWE history that people complain they don't reference, and that they want us to believe that only WWE material is part of wrestling history?

Either way, I feel like I see that imagine of Austin bleeding all the time; although maybe its in the opening sequence or something.

[bdbdbd]

In watching the actual WrestleMania clip, it's arguable that his shoulders are all the way down, especially since he's reaching up to pull Edge down.

[Riot Act]

Anyone want to read Storm's views on this? No? Too bad...

I want to debate something this week, but I’m going to have to walk gently as I do not want to offend the man that I’m going to talk about. I have a world of respect for the man I want to discuss this week and consider him one of the all time greats, but there is something that has been driving me nuts for a week or two now and I’m curious what others think, and need to speak my mind. What I want to talk about this week is the Undertakers new finishing hold, because I really don’t like it and I’m curious if I’m alone in this opinion.

For those of you who haven’t been watching SmackDown lately, the Undertaker is now using a Gogoplata Choke (a legit MMA choke) as his new finisher. The hold, for lack of a better description, is a variation of a triangle choke executed from your back where you wrap your one leg out and around your opponents shoulder and then back under his chin and then pull his head down across your shin with your hands. To execute the hold you have to use both legs and both hands while lying on your back.

I realize that MMA is getting very popular and I understand the desire to adapt that style into pro-wrestling, but I’ve always had a huge logic problem with using “choke” holds as a finish in pro-wrestling. Even back when TAZ got his Taz-mission choke over huge, I always hated it. Choking is of course illegal in pro-wrestling, and you can argue and debate the “blood choke” vs. “air choke” as much as you want, but unless there is a means by which to clearly explain the difference to your general fan base, it is just confusing to reprimand wrestlers all show about choking and then announce that someone has choked out his opponent for the win.

Even if we put that “choke” issue aside, this is a poor choice for a finish on so many levels. For starters, any move done from you back is likely a poor pro-wrestling finish. In MMA being on you back is not a bad thing, because you can’t be pinned, but in pro-wrestling that is the worst possible position to be in. For years, since pro-wrestling’s inception actually, fans have been educated to the fact that if you are on your back and someone is on top of you, you are in a bad position. Someone as dominant and powerful as the Undertaker should almost never be in this position, let alone put himself in it voluntarily. I remember watching the AWA as a fan and hearing a commentator joke that Nick Bockwinkle (AWA World Champ at the time) doesn’t even sleep on his back, and I remember thinking that was such a great line because staying off your back is the single most important thing in wrestling.

As a one-time surprise counter (provided the announcers knew what it was and could explain it) I could see this adding a new dimension to the Undertaker. When he used it to defeat Big Daddy V it made some degree of sense. Taker faced with a 500 pound opponent, found himself in a position where perhaps he could not tombstone or choke slam the 500 pounder, and after getting beat down to the ground by one of his biggest opponents yet, had to demonstrate skill rather than his more common power to get the win. This past week on SD he used the hold on Matt Striker and I found myself groaning in disapproval for the first time ever watching The Undertaker wrestle. (Actually I have groaned during other Undertaker matches but I don’t think it is fair to count matches he had with El Gigante, the man can’t work miracles).

In my opinion after nearly 2 decades of Destruction, The Dead Man should not have to leave his feet to lay waste to Matt Striker. This should be a brief confrontation where Taker is left standing tall while Striker lays at his feet, closing the segment with a great visual of one man up and one man down. Instead after choke slamming Striker, which has laid out many men to date, me included, he tied him up and rolled to his back for the submission, ending the segment with both men down on the mat, a far less visual image to close the segment; it just seemed so unnecessary, and in my opinion even brought he crowd down rather than up, after the choke slam.

It’s a poor position visually, takes a fair bit of time to hook in, and isn’t going to be easy to counter in and out of in big matches to tease false finishes. That doesn’t even take into account he fact that with Takers incredibly long legs this hold is going to be very hard to properly hook on a wide variety of people, and will likely never be as over as the Last Ride or Choke Slam. I think the old adage, “If it aint broke, don’t fix it” applies so perfectly when it comes to the Undertaker. Taker is arguably the greatest gimmick ever created as well as one of the best working big man of all time, and has two incredibly over finishes already. I don’t understand nor see the need to switch his character to that of a submission wrestler. To me The Undertaker is the Phenom, the Dead Man, or even the American Bad Ass, a guy who lays waste to those in his path, not a technically sound submission wrestler who can beat you on the ground. If you are going to play the MMA card, I see Taker as more a Chuck Liddell than a Royce Gracie.

That’s my 2-cents, I’ll be curious to hear yours.

Lance Storm

[rk]

Storm has a point. The visual doesn't lend itself to Undertaker's character and apparently the WWE might agree because in the post WM video montage they've been airing this week, they seemingly skip the submission and go from the tombstone to the post-match posing.

Personally, I love seeing the Undertaker incorporate MMA-style moves into his matches. I think that's really been a key to his evolution over the years. Even though I've always been a big UT fan, watching some of his earlier matches now is almost painful. Part of that has to do with his freedom to be less...zombie-like, as well as his usage of a wider variety of MMA-related moves. He's more dynamic and has incorporated "legitimate" holds and strikes better than just about any other wrestler to add a different dimension to his character.

They could have used the gogoplata as a choke, forcing him to break after the count of 5. It would have still been effective, but used as a set-up, rather than a finisher. Of course it's too late for that now.

[Fire-Babe]

Choking is of course illegal in pro-wrestling, and you can argue and debate the “blood choke” vs. “air choke” as much as you want, but unless there is a means by which to clearly explain the difference to your general fan base, it is just confusing to reprimand wrestlers all show about choking and then announce that someone has choked out his opponent for the win.

Lance says this much more effectively than I apparently can.

[DevSop]

Lance Storm from time to time actually makes good points. This is by far one of his best. Not being a huge MMA fan, but just a casual one I like some incorporation of their style into matches, but this is totally not the place for it. I don't even wanna debate the aspects of choke/sleeper/pain of the move. I just wanna say one thing as it relates to the gogoplata...it looks so fucking horrible as a wrestling move. The blood is completely unnecessary and I've always hated the MMA style of Taker. I hate almost everything Taker does, but this is near the top. The move just looks really bad coming from him.

[punk/core]

I'll definitely agree with Storm that it makes sense when facing someone like BVD, where a tombstone or chokeslam isn't really an option.

That said, I will buy it the way he busted it out during Mania. Edge had just hit Taker with the spear, so it should make sense that Taker wouldn't immediately be able to jump up after that, but catching Edge in the hold as he was coming over to make the pin was fine by me.

[jetskid48]

I will say that its funny that JBL (and now everyone else) calls the Undertaker "The Best Pure Striker in WWE history" and then he starts using an MMA hold as his finisher suddenly.

I pretty much buy everything the way Storm put it. Now I'm questioning my own idea of a choke, though. Before this, I was thinking about making the argument that he's actually not attacking the neck but rather the chin, but figured there was no way to argue that, except now, Storm wrote that your putting your shin under the guys chin, then pushing his head down. Is a move against the chin considered a choke, because its really not doing the normal understanding of a choke (around the neck)?

Otherwise, I think the "never should be on his back" point is tremendous and correct, especially against smaller guys. I could understand at WM and against bigger guys, but it really shouldn't be used in every match. I wouldn't mind him using it though; I like it better than a triangle choke.

[Demko]

Hey skid... it looks like your AV bandwidth has been exceeded, LOL.

I would agree with punk. I think busting it out in situations where it would make sense would be good... but again, not as a finisher. As a choke hold that the referee counts to 5 for...