[Demko]

So, in Paul Heyman's "The Heyman Hustle" this week, he goes over his Top 5 Underutilised talents. Can anyone guess who #1 is?

Could it be the completely untapped Shelton Benjamin? Or maybe it's Val Venis?

NO. He chose, as his #1 most underutilised talent, none other than...

RANDY ORTON.

NUMBER 1 - RANDY ORTON

What? How can the most spotlighted heel in WWE be the most underutilised talent in wrestling?

Because how often is Randy Orton scripted to get real heat?

Orton's run with Shawn Michaels was based on HBK superkicking The Legend Killer into oblivion week after week on TV.

Orton's storyline with Jeff Hardy was based on Hardy pinning the champ, and then one-upping him at almost every turn. Orton's schedule with Cena was the same story.

Ditto for HHH. The final week before WrestleMania, Orton tapped out to Ric Flair on Monday Night Raw.

On a case-by-case scenario, there's nothing wrong with any of it. But put into context, when does Orton get to make you hate him so badly, you're willing to pay to see him get beat, or at least beaten up?

What heinous act has Orton committed against a babyface you care about?

The only time Randy is allowed to 'pile on the heat' is during promos, and admittedly he falls short in that department.

His voice does drag. I concede, he doesn't have enough range. So, Orton either needs a manager, or a full-time off-camera behind the scenes interview coach.

The fact Orton carries the heat he does right now, even though he really hasn't done anything in almost a year - when he was given the credit for putting Shawn Michaels, Rob Van Dam, and a host of legends on the shelf - is a testament to his ability to carry himself like a main-event heel.

With a new round of contemptible actions added to the mix, Orton can be a far bigger superstar than he already is today.

And not only this, but his #2?

NUMBER 2 - THE ENTIRE TNA ROSTER

No long term concepts + bad television writing + zero marketing strategy = hard working talents whose efforts are wasted on a show that has not grown the audience whatsoever despite the tens of millions of dollars sunken into it.

Is he TRYING to get everyone here at PH to hate him?

Link to article here

[jetskid48]

I know for a fact that there are at least a few people here who think that Heyman is absolutely right about his #1, to the point that I almost posted this but didn't since I didn't want to look anti-TNA (#2) by putting this up.

I've regularly ranked him in my top 6 when he was champion, and even stated that I thought he should be the dominant champion for a while, and it would build a great payoff at the point that he finally lost it. I'm quite sure a few other people (I think Moose at least) believe the same things. I think they needed to have ridden it out a little longer with Orton as champion, actually make him a heel by cheating and/or not actually being better than his opponents in every single match. He was finally gaining momentum when they ripped the title off of him, so I totally agree with Heyman here.

So maybe if this place was 100% TNA wanks it would be anti-PH, but this actually seems to be one of his more thoughtful, less attacking columns in a while.

You should change the thread title to "Paul Heyman: TNA wanks/Orton haters Public Enemy #1?"

[Demko]

So noted, and title changed.

[jetskid48]

LOL. and an exalt.

[gobshite]

I dont know if he's the most underrated, but he is under appreciated. And I hate to say it, but I think alot of it stems from Rick. He had an extremely solid 2007, delivering in most of the main event matches he was booked in. He had good matches against DX, MitB, the fatal four way at Backlash, HBK, RVD, Cena, and then won the title.

I know he's been a prick in the past. but in the past two years, he's been rather good.

But like Heyman says, he just needs to BE a bad guy. Not an arsehole who ultimately beats everyone with the RKO.

And I think Heyman is after a job...

[Jobber Blitz]

The thread should be retitled 'Paul Heyman: Everyone except Jetskids Public Enemy #1?'. And a Smite to Jetskids for giving someone an exalt for sucking his dick.

[Concrete TG]

Taken in a vacuum, "Dear Uncle Paul" has a point - if we didn't know anything about what Orton has done outside of the ring (all his idiot acts, his misbehaviors in Europe, etc) would we think of him as even a threat, given the booking of Orton in the last year or so?

I've quieted down considerably on Orton because yes, he HAS gotten better. I still didn't like him as WWE champion but not in the "Correct" heel way (boooo, he's a bad guy). I don't like him because of all the crap he's done outside the ring.

(and I'm not saying this because it's "Dear Uncle Paul", either)

[Batman]

cowbell:

Jetskid isn't the only guy around here that thinks Orton is under-rated and isn't a big fan of TNA. There's Metallikid, too.

And how the hell is jokingly taking Skid's facetious suggestion literally, "sucking his dick"?


Gob: Are you referring to Orton being underappreciated by folks in this vicinity of the interwebs? Or the world at large? 'Cause I really don't think Rick and his obsession with how a man should drink his Corona has that much influence on the world at large.


Nikki: I don't give two craps about anybody's backstage behavior. I'm just a wrestling fan, and if it didn't happen on-screen, it has no relevance to my enjoyment. But I still have pretty much no use for Orton. I'll admit that he's occasionally pretty OK in the ring. But his character doesn't work and never has.

The problem is, he comes across as a moron, but isn't written as a moron. I used to have the same problem with AJ, but then they decided to write his character in a way that fit his personality better.

[Pun]

May 21, 2008 10:01:56 GMT -5 Batman said:

Nikki: I don't give two craps about anybody's backstage behavior. I'm just a wrestling fan, and if it didn't happen on-screen, it has no relevance to my enjoyment.

And yet here you are, on a message board that has a section dedicated to wrestling - much of it backstage talk - spawned from a website and another message board dedicated to wrestling - again, much of it backstage talk. Isn't that a little bit contradictory, Serge?

[Demko]

I suck dicks, apparently. :-)

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Forget it, he's rolling.

[Demko]

Oh, I figured. It's just fun to say that in public.

[snelson66]

The Master of the Chinlock under utilized? He's on my f'n TV multiple times per program still in the title picture, he held the brand's top title for an extended period of time, went over EVERY top talent on the roster during his Legend Killer phase and he's under utilized?!?! I call bulls***.

And smite to Gob for thinking we Orton-haters are mindless The Rick clones and can't come up with our own opinions. I rarely agree with OO's majorette, but on this subject we agree. The guy's a douchebag, in and out of the ring.

[gobshite]

Smite if you must... I guess these are the only two boards I frequent for rasslin, so my opinion is skewered. I'm not saying your mindless clones, I'm just saying he started it.

I get that Orton WAS a douche. Two to three years ago. But what exactly did he do that made him such a giant douche? Are we still hating him for possibly shitting in some diva search whore's bag? Do we know that he did that off his own bat, and wasn't being goaded by the other 'locker room generals'? Are we hating him for getting drunk and smashing a hotel room? Do we hate Rhino for doing the same thing?

And even if he was a douche a couple of years ago... since then he's matured, got married, and is now expecting a kid. Is that to say that you should all hate me because I was a giant arsehole at school?

I just think its time to drop the "Ortons a douche" stuff. He has done nothing wrong for about two years now, including wellness violations.

[Concrete TG]

May 21, 2008 11:23:26 GMT -5 gobshite said:

I just think its time to drop the "Ortons a douche" stuff. He has done nothing wrong for about two years now, including wellness violations.

We still have his temper tantrums at WM22 and the last two Europe tours (one got him sent home). Those are within the last two years. I don't need Signature Pharmacy and/or the "Orton rule" in the Wellness policy to add to the list.

I won't include the one about the stolen camera card because while it wouldn't surprise me if it happened, I never saw proof of that.

I'm willing to discuss Orton in the ring, and when he actually tries he's not bad, but he still doesn't deserve the position he's in. I just don't know if I'm capable because I know about all these other incidents.

However, I seem to give free passes to Edge and RVD for their transgressions because they still entertain me. Orton rarely does.

[Batman]

May 21, 2008 10:23:47 GMT -5 Pun said:

May 21, 2008 10:01:56 GMT -5 Batman said:

Nikki: I don't give two craps about anybody's backstage behavior. I'm just a wrestling fan, and if it didn't happen on-screen, it has no relevance to my enjoyment.

And yet here you are, on a message board that has a section dedicated to wrestling - much of it backstage talk - spawned from a website and another message board dedicated to wrestling - again, much of it backstage talk. Isn't that a little bit contradictory, Serge?

I don't think so.

First off, I think that discussion of the shows and what we liked and didn't like about them make up a lot more of the threads and posts around here than backstage rumors and such. There would still be plenty of reason to be here if one had zero interest in such stuff.

And second off, I didn't say I had no interest in backstage rumors and such. Sometimes the stories can be funny or interesting in their own right. All I'm saying is that the backstage stuff doesn't influence who I enjoy watching and who makes me fast-forward. I don't think so anyway.

It's no different than having some interest in the private life of a musician or actor. If they were to turn out to be a huge jerk (as they often do) it doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy their songs or movies just as much.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

May 21, 2008 10:48:05 GMT -5 snelson66 said:

The guy's a douchebag, in and out of the ring.

QFT. The backstage stuff never bothered me... I just want to be entertained every Monday night and outside of his run with Foley, Orton's never done that.

[Mikey]

May 21, 2008 10:48:05 GMT -5 snelson66 said:

The Master of the Chinlock under utilized? He's on my f'n TV multiple times per program still in the title picture, he held the brand's top title for an extended period of time, went over EVERY top talent on the roster during his Legend Killer phase and he's under utilized?!?! I call bulls***.

Was "under-utilized" the word used? Because if so, yeah, that's bullshit. I think the argument that Heyman was making - and what others here I think have made - is that Orton is MIS-utilized. He doesn't have a commanding screen presence enough to be taken seriously as a tippy top badass guy, which is what the E has forced down our throats for the better part of 4 years now - when he should be portrayed as a bit of a dumbass lug who cheats like hell and can fight a little bit.

It's the old wrestling character = your real personality x10 or however the phrase went. Orton's got the douchebag part down - which is arguably why he still has heat - but the rest of it doesn't fit.

[Batman]

Mike: I agree 100%.

[jetskid48]

May 21, 2008 10:01:56 GMT -5 Batman said:

cowbell:

Jetskid isn't the only guy around here that thinks Orton is under-rated and isn't a big fan of TNA. There's Metallikid, too.

And how the hell is jokingly taking Skid's facetious suggestion literally, "sucking his dick"?

I just enjoy the fact that jobber took this so seriously that he dedicated his entire signature to me...its very lovely. Puberty must be hitting the emotions hard.


But he did raise one good point...

May 21, 2008 10:35:22 GMT -5 Demko said:

I suck dicks, apparently. :-)

And you fucking love it.

May 21, 2008 10:48:05 GMT -5 snelson66 said:

The Master of the Chinlock under utilized? He's on my f'n TV multiple times per program still in the title picture, he held the brand's top title for an extended period of time, went over EVERY top talent on the roster during his Legend Killer phase and he's under utilized?!?! I call bulls***.

And smite to Gob for thinking we Orton-haters are mindless The Rick clones and can't come up with our own opinions. I rarely agree with OO's majorette, but on this subject we agree.

People aren't simple Rick-clones in opinion, but when there's someone who is regarded pretty highly among the pro-wrestling community for his opinions, its bound to sway a few people, even if one of them isn't you. I tend to lean to the same opinions as Rick myself, doesn't mean I'm a clone of his, but rather I can come up with the same opinions on subjects...though, not at all on this one.

The guy's a douchebag, in and out of the ring.

Barry Bonds is a douchebag in and out of the baseball stadium, does that automatically make him shitty at his job?



But most importantly back to this issue:

Yes, he's on the tv a lot, and yes, he did own the world title for a long period of time, but that doesn't mean he was used correctly, nor that he is worthless.

Considering he's already hated for being a douchebag, and uses it well to add to his persona, he was missing the in ring heelness that megaheels are supposed to have.

The reason he is underutilized is because:
(A) They wound up booking him like an underdog face. No matter how many obstacles were put in his way, he kept winning. He'd get his ass kicked only to pull the RKO out of knowhere to win. And what was wrong with this is
(B) He would win cleanly almost every fucking time. Heels aren't supposed to win cleanly because those who do overcome adversity to win like so are supposed to win our respect. So all they were creating a douchebag heel that we were supposed to respect....how is that supposed to work well for him?

There's two ways to book a monster heel...

He either has to absolutely destroy everyone, or be convincingly better than everyone he faces so that when he's finally beaten, its shocking, but it makes fans wait to see who can finally do that.

Or he has to be a slimy heel that never loses because he cheats or always finds help to win. This helps to build anticipation for when the "evil-doer" will finally get his come-uppance.

Orton is the perfect old school, nothing-to-like-about-him, no redeeming value as a human being heel. If he was actually booked in one of those ways instead of winning cleanly each time, or losing every so often as Heyman stated - like to Ric Flair - maybe he could have accomplished something real. But they didn't book him dominant enough, and they ended his reign just as he was finally building momentum. That's why some people still feel like he could be a quality heel.

[Tommy]

You really just compared Randy Orton to Barry Bonds, didn't you?

[jetskid48]

You're right...I def should have picked someone more talented to compare with Orton.



To make a better comparison...a hypothetical:

Lets say Tommy is douchebag.

Lets say Tommy is also a nuclear physicist.

Should his personality trait effect how we feel about the product of his scientific work?




...and if that's also an unclear point...well...it was one horrible point in a 1,000 character post...leave me alone.

[Tommy]

Comparing Randy Orton to Melky Cabrera would have made much more sense.

[Demko]

You see, though, I like heels better when I don't think they're douchebags outside of the wrestling ring. Mainly because I *WANT* them to succeed as a heel when I like them. Perfect example of this? Edge. I LOVE to hate Edge as a heel, because I know from personal meetings with him that he's not an asshole. He's actually a very nice and polite guy (well, except for that whole nonsense with Lita, but I still swear to god that that was the WWE working over its' fans for an angle).

Does that make sense?

[jetskid48]

Just to clarify though, that would also mean that if a certain actor was not a very likeable person off screen, there's no way you could be entertained by him on any show or movie he'd be in?

-----

I feel like Edge fits into that whole "cool heel" category, which works on certain levels, but also when the only type of heel, tends to lower the value of the faces.

This whole idea is hard for me to explain, but I'll give it a try...

By having "cool guy heels", it makes faces need to find other ways to become likeable. It's not necessarily a bad thing to want them to work harder, but it does raise the diffuculty level quite a bit. They say its harder to do good comedy than good drama, and it would seem the same way, that it's harder to get a crowd to like you (as would probably be the way with the pessimistic wrestling crowds of today) than to get them to boo.

But if a cool heel can get fans to enjoy themselves, then where does that leave the faces? I think that winds up making a lot of them seem bland because they can't cross the same lines that heels can. Marketing has obviously made it better for heels to be cool with the crowd, but isn't the whole point of the face/heel thing supposed to be that fans like the ones that supposed to be the face's and hate the people who are heels - whether it be wrestling...or any other sort of movie/show/story?