[bdbdbd]

WWE would like you to vote for 15 matches in the 25 year history of Starrcade. Five per era: NWA (83-88), WCW (89-94), and "Monday Night" (95-2000). They say it's for 24/7, but rumor has it the voting will also be considered for a best of Starrcade DVD (or DVD set) to release in the near future because nothing WCW has ever done could possibly be worth the snazzy megaset treatment WWE PPVs get.

There's some good stuff listed. Skywalkers, Piper/Valentine dog collar, Sting/Vader for the King of Cable, Mysterio/Luger from 96.

Ballot. Seems you can vote everyday. Don't vote for the battle royals. Or the Goldberg/Hart match.

[Mikey]

Magnum/Tully.

Nuff said.

[Eric O'Mac]

Yeah, I voted for that one. I also voted for the Guerrero/Ohtani bout, and the one match featuring Cactus Jack and Maxx Payne.

[salmonjunkie]

Sting vs. Black Scorpion?

[bdbdbd]

Are you asking? Black Scorpion was an infamous failing of WCW's bookers. Sting was terrified by a masked man calling himself the Black Scorpion and they set a match at Starrcade. Unfortunately whomever they wanted to be the Scorpion backed out so it ended up being Flair. Again.

I fear what the younglings will vote for. Oooh! This one says Austin! What's a Valentine? If things like Piper/Hogan 96 or either Golerberg matches make it I may cry. These are people who votes for One Night Stand 06 over 05 last month.

[salmonjunkie]

Wasn't asking the backstory. Was asking why that match deserved to be on the list.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I'm not familar with much from NWA/WCW. Can somebody tell me what they think their Top 15 is? I might go back and try and find some of these matches sometime.

[Eric O'Mac]

Other than tha matches I listed, I voted for the Valentine-Piper match at Starrcade 83, and a collection of Flair matches.

[Mikey]

Of the stuff listed here, the first tier of matches are the best. Magnum/Tully is an all-time classic, and both cage matches with the Rock n Roll Express are very good, as well. Flair/Luger was pretty good, with a cop out finish I do believe. And IIRC, Steiner/Rotunda was a bunch of fun, too. The scaffold matches are dramatic, if otherwise boring as shit. I've never seen the Tully/Steamboat match, but I would presume it's awesome.

The second tier is really kinda random, with the two Battlebowl gimmicks in 91 and 92. Personally, I liked the two ring battle royal in '91... if only because I'm a Rick Rude mark. Never saw the '92 version, but I'm pretty sure the Douglas/Steamboat vs. Windham/Pillman match is a damn good one. Sting/Vader I KNOW was good. And the Austin/Dustin match was notable for being 2 out of 3 falls with Austin winning in two straight, and the dimming of the lights when one of the guys got to bleeding toward the end. Vader/Flair is excellent, as well.

I could really give a fuck about the last bunch here except for the Sting vs. Luger vs. Flair triangle match from ''95 and the subsequent Flair/Savage match in which Flair bled all over the place. The 4 way ladder match from 2000 is pretty good having seen it on the Ladder Match DVD. The rest is crap, though Goldberg vs. Nash is pretty entertaining, especially considering how everything turned out.

[Attitude Adjuster]

Here's my top matches from the NWA/WCW eras. I seem the remmeber some other matches that were better, but not listed. Maybe they were GAB rather than Starcade. Or maybe my memory just sucks because I'm old.

NWA
Piper/Valentine--That's the famous Dog Collar Match that blew off that feud.

Flair/Rhodes (2)--Doesn't matter which one. When Flair and Rhodes went at it, those were great fights. One of them must be a Rhodes title win, when Flair tried to go 14-for-14 during what was then called "The Great American Bash" tour. Announcers were claiming that if Flair could keep the title all summer, he would be the greatest ever. Rhodes was the last man that could stop Flair.

Tully/Magnum--I Quit Match in a Steel Cage. Like Mike said. 'Nuf said. For those who aren't old enough to remember or just haven't seen it, it is still brutal by today's standards and was UGLLLLYYY at that time.

Race/Flair--I'm pretty sure that's Flair's first title win. A rare chance to see Flair as a face before "The Nature Boy" personality really took hold.

WCW
Sting/Muta--This was during both of their primes, and part of the one night, singles and tag team tournaments. A great night of wrestling all around.

Dustin/Austin--I think this is the Ironman match. If so, it's great psychology by Austin, who you could already start to see the "Stone Cold" in him.

Vader/Flair--I think this is when Flair threatened to retire if he lost. At one point Vader knocks out one of Flair's teeth, and the next few minutes is classic Flair as he's legit pissed but still trying to stay in character.

For me, the rest is crap.

[Lucky]

The rest is crap? I know its not really your style but Eddie/Ohtani and Sting/Sasaki matches were both very good matches from that World Cup of Wrestling PPV.

Rey/Liger and Malenko/Eddie both stand out to me as good matches although I can't come up with much context.

Malenko/Ultimo was like a really good near 20 minute match that saw Ultimo defend the 8 titles of his J-Crown vs Dean's WCW Title to crown one man with 9 CWs titles including the IWGP, WCW, and WWF belts.

I can't remember the Kidman 3 way and subsequent defense against Eddie but I know they came right after each other so are more of a package deal as Kidman wrestles 3 men over nearly half an hour.

DDP/Eddie and DDP/Hennig are more matches that I'd want to see on a DDP DVD since the first is really the beginning of him becoming a fan favorite with the nWo story and the 2nd is the real culmination of that story as he's become the People's Champion (and stupidly is wrestling Hennig in the match Flair or Benoit should have wrestled him in for revenge for the Horsemen turn). Its actually a really cool story to show how much DDP changes in a year with a failed bid to win the US title when the nWo screws him to him defeating the nWo for the US belt.

But crap? C'mon! Just because it doesn't include legendary names from the '80s doesn't make it crap. Sheesh.

[Tommy]

3 Count vs. The Jung Dragons vs. Jamie Knoble & Evan Karagias

Everyone must vote for this match.

[Eric O'Mac]

because you drafted everyone in that match?

[Lucky]

Because he's really bunny's father.

[Attitude Adjuster]

Jul 24, 2008 15:09:53 GMT -5 Lucky said:

The rest is crap? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah... But crap? C'mon! Just because it doesn't include legendary names from the '80s doesn't make it crap. Sheesh.

When Mike and I both say it's crap, it's most definitely crap.

[Lucky]

Please. It just means it happened after your short term memory kicked out and you started going to be at 6 PM.

[Tommy]

Jul 24, 2008 16:50:14 GMT -5 Eric O'Mac said:

because you drafted everyone in that match?

Shit, I did, didn't I?

[Tommy]

Jul 24, 2008 17:02:21 GMT -5 Lucky said:

Because he's really bunny's father.

It's technically possible; although I don't remember impregnating anyone at the age of 14.

[Tommy]

Jul 24, 2008 17:04:27 GMT -5 Attitude Adjuster said:

When Mike and I both say it's crap we like something, it's most definitely crap.

QFT

[Lucky]

I just find it kind of sad that as a relatively young fan I appreciate the modern stuff and what I grew up with but also go back and watch, enjoy, and appreciate the great wrestling of the '70s and '80s I missed. But these poor old guys can't seem to do anything but stare at the youtube links sent to them and scream at the computer while shaking their walking sticks. Its sad, really.

Plus a match like Jushin Liger vs Rey Mysterio or Shinjiro Ohtani vs Eddie Guerrero confuses them because all of those guys are supposed to be the heels! Where's the cowboys to beat them up!?!

[Attitude Adjuster]

"Where's the cowboys to beat them up!?!" Lucky, that's outstanding!

My problem with today's wrestling is that, with few exceptions, ring psychology is nowhere to be found. The kind of matches you describe are a perfect example. I'm sure somewhere in that match, one of the guys does a triple flippy somersault plancha burrito con carne rana, and 30 seconds later the guy who got hit with it is back on his feet trying some other death-defying move. Back in the day (yes, back in the day), you got hit with a brainbuster or a piledriver, you stayed down. A top rope move was an automatic finisher, not just some high spot in the middle of a seven-minute TV match.

The other thing that gets me now-a-days (yes, now-a-days), is that dudes always have to have a reason to fight each other. That creates stupid angles like "Oops, I just spilt coffee on Kane and now he has a death warrant out on me!" How about, the booker put us in a match together, let's get it on!

There is some stuff I like today. I like Shawn Michaels/Chris Jericho right now. I loved the Angle/Tomko/Styles/Cage stuff at its peak. I like the Motor City Machine Guns even though they seem to be nothing more than Jobbers to the Stars. I think I'm even liking DiBiase Jr and Cody Rhodes because they act like they actually care about what they're doing.

At the same time, if you look at my recent post in the AWA retro thread, there's some stuff from the past I seriously mock. Come on, I'm the first guy to break out the jokes at the expense of Verne Gagne's title runs, and I'm an AWA fan.

There is good and bad in both the current and past product. But there was a lot more story-telling in the past, and that's what I miss most.

[Lucky]

None of those criticism actually apply to the matches I mentioned though. The 3 team ladder match? Yeah, its all flippy, no psychology. And there's some really shitty stories on some of those matches. And Kidman matches may be too flippy for your tastes. But Eddie/Ohtani, Sting/Sasaki, Malenko/Dragon, DDP/Hennig, and DDP/Eddie? There's not a true flippy guy in that bunch and they all understood psychology and pacing very well.

And the stories? Sasaki/Sting and Ohtani/Eddie were simply 2 of 7 matches in the World Cup of Wrestling where New Japan and WCW wrestled 7 matches to see who was the best. That's it. The great story buildup is that Bobby Heenan tried to sell WCW to Sonny Ono and when WCW voided the deal Ono got mad and thus challenged WCW. Malenko/Ultimo is a straight up title match between 2 of the best CWs in the world fighting for NINE of the CW titles of the world, neither anything more than kick ass wrestlers. DDP/Eddie is a simple tournament final for the US title between 2 men who had feuded for the better part of the year and DDP broke Eddie's arm, with a side story of the growing nWo invasion and the Outsiders' attempts to recruit DDP. DDP/Hennig is a WCW dude and an nWo dude fighting over a title with DDP angry at Hennig because he proved to be a scumbag when he trusted him and brought him into the company and now Hennig disrespects him. They're simple and straightforward stories build on simple tests of who is the best and title pursuits.

So its great that back in the day they understood psychology and fought for simple reasons... but they kept doing that plenty after 1990. They even STILL do it sometimes. Its like writing all of ECW off as garbage wrestling or all of TNA off as flippy or all of ROH as boring 60 minute grapple fests. They actually did other stuff too.

[Lucky]

I found Liger/Mysterio. From what I remember there was no story at all. Just 2 top CWs facing off because they were booked to and it would make a good match.



Shinjiro Ohtani vs Eddie Guerrero

Kidman vs Rey vs Juvi
Followed by: Kidman vs Eddie Guerrero

[Demko]

Hey Lucky, that Kidman/Guerrero match... wasn't that pretty much the birth of the Filthy Animals?

[Lucky]

No, not really. It started a Kidman/Rey loose alliance/occasional tag team but the rest of it didn't come for awhile and they feuded with Eddie, Juvi, and the lWo. Rey and Konnan did the No Limit Soldiers thing which Kidman wasn't a part of. That was basically the birth of them I think as then when it fell apart Kidman, Eddie, and Juvi came in.

I think. My memory of that period is kinda foggy as it was my good college days and I haven't gotten up to it in my viewing.

I guess you can KINDA regard that as the start, but the No Limit Soldiers seems better because Kidman and Rey parted ways.

I think.