[Lucky]

Dec 27, 2008 17:33:17 GMT -5 Jack Quinn said:

I mean if I want to get a gun, and I am trained in how to shoot it, I have taken measures to make certain that my gun is stored properly in a locked cabinet with the ammo somewhere else, why shouldn't I be allowed to do that?

Because we as a society have absolutely no way to trust you, the individual. You're the one who seems to think we as a society are dumber than so many other societies. So why would you trust the individuals of our society when those societies don't?

I mean, your personal responsibility is fine. You may or may not trust yourself to protect your nephews from your guns. But what about your neighbors? Their friends' parents? What about the local gun show where people can buy guns without a waiting period? Or pawn shops? Why in the world would you trust the rest of society's individuals to not endanger your nephews when you don't trust them as a whole?

If we were talking about things with true usage I might be having a different argument. If you were saying "I worry about my wife and my nephews when they stay over. And I want the ability to protect them if something happened." Then we'd be having a different conversation. But you want the gun to have fun with it. So yes, I think guns should be eliminated for recreation if only to avoid ONE accidental death or irrational decision. If baseball bats were a major problem in America that could kill with ease then I'd want to eliminate baseball. It strikes me as remarkably selfish and juvenile to hold on to killing machines because they're fun.

As a society. I'm not calling YOU juvenile. Quite the contrary, as I said, I think your statement about how you worry about the guns with your nephews shows the very responsibility I'm looking for. Which is why I don't get why you trust society as a whole (American Idol obsessed idiots and all) to have guns for GAMES.

It seems like a 100% unnecessary risk all for the purpose of some games. Isn't taking risks for the sake of pointless recreation basically a definition of irresponsibility?

[creepy]

We have a buddy that has all sorts of guns. Hand guns, rifles, shot guns, machine guns, even grenades. A tatted up punk rocker with an arsenal he keeps in one of those gigantic safes. And we have some Peurto Rican friends that have a shit ton of guns. Shit ton. I don't like spending time with either. They don't feel comfortable without their guns in the house.

Shortly after Ike, someone called our Rican friend and told him that someone was snooping around his house, so he grabbed one of his guns and asked me if I wanted to come along. My answer was evident by the look on my face. Guns make me nervous.




Plus, I don't trust Peurto Ricans.

[Andy]

I think there was a misunderstanding Luck. I don't actually own any guns, I just love guns. I was saving up money and I wanted to buy a gun, especially with an anti-gun guy coming into office, but now I don't think I will. I just bought the Wire box set and I want a flatscreen tv and I found out I have to pay $350 to get my car fixed.

I've never owned my own gun and I want one. Eventually I'll get my gun and then I'll be happy. My father is a member of the NRA and I was raised to be responsible around guns.

The big city guys are all anti-gun, but I can't imagine living in Boston or New York without one. Its my right to keep you from killing me with your gun with my gun.

Dec 27, 2008 16:56:32 GMT -5 Fire-Babe said:

Seriously. (Unless that has changed, it's been a while since I dated boy scouts).

Been at least 3 or 4 years for me as well.

[Lucky]

I humbly suggest you have a screwed up view of Boston and New York forged by whatever biases and exploitative perceptions are out there about those places. Because I managed to grow up in housing projects and work my entire life in one of the must run down ghettos in the city and never once in my life felt unsafe enough to wish I had a gun. I've also never so much as had a gun threatened to be drawn on me. Worst I've had were individuals I suspected might be carrying and safely avoided, police, or one completely retarded Secret Service member who likes to flash his gun when drunk to his old drinking buddies.

I've known some bad people and involved with some iffy situations but that's because I was born into poverty and chose to work with impoverished my entire life. And have at times made the reckless decision to go places a more responsible man wouldn't. But this notion that NY is some unsafe place to be and you need a gun to deal with all those gun wielding maniacs that will gladly kill you? Stop watching movies.

Did it never strike you as odd that if the big cities were as bad as they sounded that so many big city people would be anti-gun and not own them?

EDIT: Sorry about the misunderstanding about you owning a gun. I couldn't remember and checked the results. Saw 2 votes and figured you and Moose, but I forgot Shark said he owned.

[Andy]

Its not from tv, I've been there, dude. And its nothing against those two cities personally, its just a numbers thing. The fewer people are around, the safer I feel. You have millions of people all together in one city that raises the number of people who want to fuck me up and rob or kill me exponentially. The more people are around, the more bad people are around. That's just a fact. Let's say 5% of people are evil shitheads, if I'm in a town with 1000 people I only have to worry about 50 people. In a city with a million people there's 50,000 to worry about. Get what I'm saying?

[BC]

Avoid Mexico City then.

[Lucky]

Well that's just a matter of comfort, I suppose. You and Moose mocked my reaction to solitude. If I find myself in the woods and quite a bit secluded from society without anyone in ear shot and far from help... well something mundane in one society could prove fearful in the other. A van blocking the road would never frighten me in a city street. There's far too much congestion and too many eyes to believe there's a true threat. Whereas in the woods I can't help but notice that if people in that van DID have bad intents that it would take hours or days before someone missed me and maybe longer before someone found any evidence that may be around of my fate. Certainly no one was there to assist me immediately if something happened.

I can certainly understand how congestion and crowds would spook you. Especially since I'm a bit of an agoraphobic/claustrophobic. But a gun doesn't make you any safer in NYC. That's the thing with guns. That's why I'd be less patient for guns than other lethal weapons. A gun can take your life in an instant. With no sound, no warning, no defense. Someone need only want to take your life and they can do it without you ever seeing, hearing, or sensing them. Not too many other weapons do that as effectively and none of them are as plentiful as guns. If someone so intended they could stab you in a crowd but it would take the willful ambivalence of many to not save you or stop him. But you can be carrying a gun and be dead without ever thinking to reach for it.

So the sense of safety strikes me as a lie. Its not the Wild West and someone with the intention to kill you won't ask for a shoot out at high noon. And there will be few other scenarios in which a man with a gun and true intent in his heart gives you the time to reciprocate. Guns just strike me as a largely a security blanket. Which would be fine if all security blankets came with such a strong risk of accidental or passionate strangulation.

You and Moose both expressed this idea that taking the guns from citizens would lead to an increase in danger to them from those with illegal guns. Which just strikes me as paranoia. The streets wouldn't fill with criminals waving guns if there was less fear of citizens carrying them. You'd be no less safe in dark alleys from someone wishing to harm you. And you'd be no more or less likely to die if you ran afoul of a true killer. I just can't imagine how we think we live in a society like that and if that society does exist outside of my corner of the world than that scares me. But its not NYC, I know that for a fact. And your need to own a gun in NYC ultimately strikes me as a meaningless and irrational need, if not an understandable one.

Maybe its different in Texas where you tell me people walk around with pieces strapped outside their jackets. There they may be some sort of tie to the likelihood to be hurt with how likely you are to be carrying a gun. But again, if NYC was truly as dangerous as you seem to perceive than it would seem the strict gun laws and general anti-gun sentiment would only increase the threat and gun violence. Yet the danger is not exponentially higher here and the most effective means to lessen it have come with law enforcement initiatives and gun control. Not by arming every citizen.

Give every man a gun and I'd put money on more dumb fucks pulling the trigger than more criminal fucks deciding to go straight.

[Andy]

Okay, New York's big thing is that last year was the first time since they started keeping track that less than 500 people were murdered in the city. A 470 square mile area where 500 people are murdered every year and that's just a given. So, per capita, more than one person will be murdered per square mile. That's fucking horrifying.

[Andy]

And by the way, I don't want to walk around with a gun on me at all times. I'd just like to have one in my house, as is my right.

[Lucky]

That's also in a population of 8.725 M people. That's roughly 1 in ever 16,550 people. You want to play those odds against other cities? And you want to try and take a deeper look at how many of those homicides are innocent civilians and how many are criminals?

[Andy]

That was my point though. The population doesn't forgive the numbers to me, that's my entire reason for not wanting to live there. More people means more bad people means more crime.

[Lucky]

I'd be amazed if a gun did anything for you in that situation other than create a false sense of security. Meanwhile there'd be a lot more armed idiots, fuckups, desperate souls, and evil fucks.

[Andy]

And I'm not saying you and Tommy are nuts for not owning a gun either. But personally, I wouldn't want to live in a major city. But if I got offered a great job in one of them, I'd want to have a gun in the home. You have more murderers in a more congested area. Its just the way it is.

I don't have kids. I don't hunt. I just like shooting at the range and I'd like to have a gun in the home and hope I never have to use it. If I had children it'd be a different story, but I don't. I'm a single responsible adult and I want to own a gun.

[Tommy]

Dec 28, 2008 1:41:00 GMT -5 Andy said:

And I'm not saying you and Tommy are nuts for not owning a gun either. But personally, I wouldn't want to live in a major city. But if I got offered a great job in one of them, I'd want to have a gun in the home. You have more murderers in a more congested area. Its just the way it is.

I don't have kids. I don't hunt. I just like shooting at the range and I'd like to have a gun in the home and hope I never have to use it. If I had children it'd be a different story, but I don't. I'm a single responsible adult and I want to own a gun.

Like I've said several times. I feel safer walking through Mattapan or Dorchester or where I used to live in Worcester at 3 AM than I would in rural Texas at Noon.

I'm 33, I've spent a lot of times in major cities; and not once have I felt the need to carry a gun.

The "what if" scenarios are all well and good. What if I get mugged? Are you really gonna shoot someone over the $20 in your pocket? What if I get my house broken into? First off, most home invasions occur during the day when people are at work. If you kept a gun in the home, chances are the B&E-er would just steal it anyway. then if THEY use it to commit a crime; guess who's liable if they don't report it stolen? And the few who DO break into houses at night typically aren't looking to shoot you unless they're psychos. And psychos can get you anywhere. A house alarm is more than enough deterrent.

Pretty much the argument I see here is: "People own guns so they can own guns". Andy, your argument is that in a city which has more than 5% of the US's total population, they have 500 (give or take) gun related deaths per year. The US as a country has averaged 14 gun-related deaths per 100,000 pretty much since the passage of the Brady Bill. That's approximately 72,000 gun-related deaths per year (Homicide, Accidents, Suicide). This means that New York City, 5% of the Population, accounts for approximately .007% of Gun-Related Deaths in the United States. The state of West Virginia has a population of a bit less than 2,000,000 (which is about .6% of the US Population). West Virginia averages about 16 gun-related deaths per 100,000 people per year. That works out to about 3200 gun related deaths per year.

Bottom line? You're safer walking through the Bronx at 3 AM than you are in Appalachia at Noon.

To twist a phrase: Guns don't kill people. People with guns kill people.

[Eric O'Mac]

I do not personally own a gun. But I have fired one plenty of times.

My father and my brother own several. They are hunters. My dad is a retired Army Sgt. He also works as a correctional officer. He knows how to fire a gun and he has hunted since he was a kid. My brother, a high school senior, also knows how to fire a gun. They go hunting several times during the respective hunting seasons. When the guns are not being used, they are properly stored in a locked cabinet.

I see nothing wrong with them owning guns, knowing how to fire guns, etc. But then again, this is NC. Hutning is popular here. I've hunted before. I am far from a redneck, so it's not just rednecks. It's a sport.

Oh, and my dad also owns a handgun. For protection. No one but him knows where it is in the house. And I agree with his right to have it, as we have had 3 people attempted to break in our house while we've been home in the past two years, and 7 in the ten years that we have lived there. There have also been several breakins on our road. We live in the country, out of town. If any of those people who had broken into our house while we were home had been willing to kill for whatever it was they were after, you are damn right I would want my dad to shoot him. And I'm damn grateful he would know how to use it should it ever come.

[Habs]

Dec 28, 2008 1:25:47 GMT -5 Lucky said:

That's also in a population of 8.725 M people. That's roughly 1 in ever 16,550 people. You want to play those odds against other cities? And you want to try and take a deeper look at how many of those homicides are innocent civilians and how many are criminals?

Montreal has about 3M people. Number of murders as of December 11th in 2008: 24.

Guns are not very popular in Canada. I don't know anyone that has one, other then Hunting riffles that are used for hunting.

[Habs]

Dec 27, 2008 16:12:04 GMT -5 Byrntrigan said:

I'd be interested in knowing what our Candian PH'ers think, as guns are illegal to own except for hunting, yes? And you have your hunting gun(s) being held by the police until you check it out to use it.

What's the gun violence like up there? Does the Candian method limit gun violence?

By no means am I a gun expert, but i don't think hand guns are illegal per say. You can have your gun in your house, but it has to be locked up and have a lock on the firing mechanism. You need a permit before bying a gun (even for hunting). Many guns that are legal in the states are illegal here.

As for the gun violence, see my previous post about murders in Montreal. Now gun culture in Canada is similar to the US in the sense that it varies from province to province. Alberta is verytexas like in it's thinking, but yu will never see someone carry a gun. But you do see gun racks in pick-up trucks. This yu would never see out east or in BC.

[Fire-Babe]

I dont' have any of my crim stuff here, but if I'm remembering correctly, Canada has more guns per capita than the US, and a much MUCH lower murder rate.

(I'm a bad liberal, I know...)

[BTR]

Dec 27, 2008 15:12:54 GMT -5 Habs said:

Dec 27, 2008 14:19:37 GMT -5 Byrntrigan said:

See, I tought tat was true, so I learned a shit load of stuff about snakes, asked my mom to take me to the Snake house at the zoo when I was young, followed every Steve Irwing special about Snakes, but I'm still scared shitless of them. Maybe I should have done the Boy Scout thing. Do they have a snake badge?

Snakes don't kill people.

Snake Plisskin kills people.

[denverpunk]

I recall shooting guns the being the ONLY fun thing about Boy Scouts. I was terrible with them, but they never let you shoot handguns, so maybe I have a hidden talent somewhere. I was always better at archery, but that's not so practical -- imagine gangs using bows rather than guns. Yeah, not so much.

I'm not strictly anti-gun and I don't own one, but I'd agree that it's much easier to kill someone with one than without. Here in Prague and in Denver, they weren't so necessary for me, but in Atlanta a gun would have been nice in more than one situation.

I think they're more necessary in rural areas. We used to go camp in the Rockies quite a bit and someone would always bring a gun, as there aren't any cops to help you if someone decides they want to kill you and your girlfriend. There are a lot of crazy fuckers out there.

[Outback Frito Pendejo]

Most of the murders in NYC happen in "bad" neighborhoods, and the remainder are often crimes of passion betwen people who know eachother. Midtown Manhattan is generally safe.

With Moose owning a gun, does that remind anyone of Vanderbilt from F-Troop?

[Andy]

Well, I put my down payment on an Armscor 9mm. I'll be picking it up on Friday. I'll post pictures.

And if I pull a Plaxico and shoot myself in the leg, I'll totally admit I was wrong and let all of you laugh at me. Of course, I'll keep it in a case and not down the front of my pants. That's silly.

[Jack Quinn]

you'll shoot your eye out

[Habs]

Dec 29, 2008 13:52:29 GMT -5 Andy said:

Of course, I'll keep it in a case and not down the front of my pants. That's silly.

You wouldn't have room for two guns down there anyways.

[National Champion Chris Cole]

I guess I'll chime in. I think hunting rifles are ok. Let the hunter's have their legal rights. I see no reason though why laws restricting handguns are bad. A handgun is what is going to serious hurt people. Those end up on the streets and in the hands of the criminals. I see no reason for me to ever own any gun period but a handgun especially.

I was in Boy Scouts and did shoot a rifle one year at Camp. Nothing sinister or even that interesting about rifles in Scouts. It really does teach you about the safety conditions around the sport of rifle shooting. You only keep the guns in the range and shoot at targets. I wasn't very good at rifle shooting. I was better at Archery.