[Pun]

This is going to be repetitive for Mikey and Solly, so you two can skip over this.

After watching a Cubs team that has been struggling to score runs lately, absolutely destroy Charlie Morton today, I wonder how any of the Pirates scouts still have a job. I may be missing something, but in all honesty, how many of the trades they have made over their last 16 firesales have actually worked out? How does anyone in their talent evaluation department still have a job?

[Mikey]

C-H-A-R-L-I-E. C-H-A-R-L-I-E. Mainman.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

[Lucky]

Morton has been an average pitcher for the Pirates up till today and the Pirates got 2 other prospects who are very undeveloped. More importantly since the trade McCutchen has outperformed McLouth, whether we're talking about what McLouth has done as a Brave, what he was doing for the Pirates earlier in the season, or his career averages. At a fraction of the cost and better defensively. People should be fired because one small part of a deal had a horrible game?

I'm not a Pirates fan or anything and I don't particularly think they're smart but there seems like this kind of weird reaction baseball fans have given them this season that because they traded a bunch of mediocre talents fans have heard of for a bunch of mediocre talents they've never heard of in order to save money when their season was hopeless that they're colossal morons. And I fail to understand it. If you ask me to point out the trades that "worked out" I don't know if I can, but if I ask you to point out the trades that have "burned" the Pirates can you? I mean, 6 days after they moved Adam Laroche Boston moved him for Casey freaking Kotchman. But for whatever reason the Pirates are morons because we don't know the names of the guys they got.

They got mediocre returns on mediocre talent because their team wasn't even mediocre so it wasn't worth paying for. I don't think its a strategy to praise and I can understand why Pirates fans are frustrated, but I don't see what there is to deride about this season's "firesales." We're really criticizing them not getting a stud prospect for a mildly above average OFer in what was clearly a salary dump?

[Lou]

Elvis Andrus' entrance theme. Just because it's awesome.

[Lou]

Chacarron.

















Chacarron.

[creepy]

Been one of my favorite Latin songs for years. Saw the guy from Luche Libre rockin' it years ago.



















Chacarron.

[Pun]

Re: The Pirates

I'm not just talking about this year, Lucky. I mean they have had a losing record for, what, 16 years straight, now? And I'm pretty sure in at least 10 of them they have sold off their better players in order to "stock the farm" or "play for the future". But really, what have they gotten in return? Just going off the Cubs trades, because that's what I can remember off the top of my head, they gave up Aramis Ramirez for a guy who's not even in baseball anymore (Bobby Hill), and they gave Jon Lieber for Brant Brown. Brown never amounted to anything either. I'm also pretty sure the prospects they got in return for Jason Schmidt, Sean Casey, et. al. never amounted to much either.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only thing I can really think of that worked (if you can consider it working, since they never won anything even with them) was trading Brian Giles for Jason Bay and Oliver Perez. When you trade away as many guys as the Pirates have over the years (and many with exceptional talent), you should expect a lot more of them to pan out, and even be better than average players.

[Pun]

Cubs considering firing Lou?

Cubs getting ready to can Lou Piniella?

The Chicago Cubs are less than four games out of first place in the National League Central, but they just lost five in a row and only three of their last 10 while the first-place St. Louis Cardinals seem to be going in the other direction, winning seven of their last 10.

The word is that Cubs executives are not amused. And they aren't afraid to express their feelings to manager Lou Piniella. His Cubbies had recently won 16 of 22 to get into a first-place tie that now is looking pretty distant again.

The rumor going around is that the team may be losing patience with Piniella, according to the Chicago Tribune. After all, he hasn't been able to get his North Siders to win it all in the three seasons he's been managing and this off-season won't likely bring the team much on the free-agent front to bolster the current roster.

It could be time to cut Lou loose.

I am torn on this. On one hand, they guy guided the Cubs to back to back NL Central titles and won 97 games last year. I think that alone should be given a pass until the end of the season. But on the other hand, it seems pretty clear that he has a difficult time motivating his players, as shown in the playoffs the last 2 years and the current season. If it does happen, it needs to happen soon, because I'd love to see what Bob Brenly could do with this team. From watching him on TV, he seems to have a very good grasp of the team. He knows everyone's strengths and weaknesses. I think he could do well.

The first comment in that link says "Time for Sandberg!" God no! I love Sandberg. He's probably my favorite Cub, but he is not ready for the majors as a manager yet. He's only been in the minors for 2 years! Go with Brenly or Trammell for a couple years first.

[DevSop]

They got Andy LaRoche, who at one point was a big time prospect for Bay. They got Ryan Vogelsong for Schmidt. They got Jason Bay AND Oliver Perez for a clearly declining Brian Giles.

And to be fair about the A-Ram trade, they were forced to make that trade by MLB in order to get in line with a dept ratio policy from what I'm reading.

[Pun]

Yeah, I forgot about Ryan Vogelsong. That 315 innings pitched and 5.86 ERA over 6 seasons with the Pirates did wonders for them.

[DevSop]

Aug 15, 2009 10:15:20 GMT -5 Pun said:

Yeah, I forgot about Ryan Vogelsong. That 315 innings pitched and 5.86 ERA over 6 seasons with the Pirates did wonders for them.

He was a highly touted prospect who didn't work out. It happens. It doesn't make it a bad trade.

[Pun]

Actually, it does.

Here's a little tip. When a prospect or player doesn't pan out in a trade, it's a bad trade. See, Kazmir for Zambrano.

[DevSop]

Yea, cause that comparison makes any sense. No one has ever denied that Kazmir/Zambrano was a bad trade, but that was a bad trade from the start.

If Vogelsong worked out, then that's not a bad trade. At the time it was a solid prospect for a pitcher. The type of deal every team makes. It happened that Vogelsong didn't work out. If the Pirates make that same deal and get Matt Cain, it's the exact opposite. It's proven year in and year that prospects are a crapshoot. Everyone thought the Indians made a great deal when they traded Alomar to the Mets. Name one prospect from that trade.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Alex Escobar

[Mikey]

Exactly.

[Pun]

You're making my point for me Sop. The whole thing was that the Pirates need better talent evaluators. None of those prospects aside from Bay and Schmidt have amounted to anything. In all the years they have been selling off pieces of the team, they should have had a much better return.

[DevSop]

Aug 15, 2009 13:32:47 GMT -5 Pun said:

You're making my point for me Sop. The whole thing was that the Pirates need better talent evaluators. None of those prospects aside from Bay and Schmidt have amounted to anything. In all the years they have been selling off pieces of the team, they should have had a much better return.

What team has gotten a great return on trades though? It's a crapshoot. And you're basing it on one start for Morton. Who knows what he becomes. I'm not saying the Pirates are a quality run organization, because I don't think they are. But I don't see why one bad Charlie Morton start is the basis for them blowing up their scouting department. A scouting department which has found McCutcheon and others.

[Jack Quinn]

I agree with both of you in a way. I don't think the Pirates organization is all that competent. They have found good players like McCutcheon and Aramais (if he came up in their organization) but after 16 years of trading for prospects, it sure seems like you should have SOMETHING to show for it by now, and the Pirates don't. I think Morton getting shelled isn't the reason to fire everyone, but the last 16 years should be

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Well they DID get Bay from the Padres but the fact they couldn't keep him or add anyone else to that lineup speaks more of the horrible ownership that does nothing with the money they get from the luxury tax and/or PNC for the naming rights of the stadium.

[DevSop]

Aug 15, 2009 14:10:55 GMT -5 Jack Quinn said:

I agree with both of you in a way. I don't think the Pirates organization is all that competent. They have found good players like McCutcheon and Aramais (if he came up in their organization) but after 16 years of trading for prospects, it sure seems like you should have SOMETHING to show for it by now, and the Pirates don't. I think Morton getting shelled isn't the reason to fire everyone, but the last 16 years should be

But they do find guys, they just trade them rather quickly. Brian Giles, Jason Schmidt, etc.

[Jack Quinn]

Yeah, and I get that they are operating under a smaller budget than most teams, but hell, even the Marlins and Rays have been able to keep SOME of their good players. And the ones they haven't, they usually are able to trade for prospects that will be a real help. In Tampa's case, that took, what, like 10 years before they were a legit contender? And Florida runs theirs in cycles, but every few years, they have a solid team on the field. With Pittsburgh its been
1. Grow/Find good players
2. Trade them off when they get expensive for prospects that will never amount to anything.
3. Trade those lousy prospects for equally lousy prospects and call it rebuilding

[Lucky]

Aug 15, 2009 11:19:39 GMT -5 Pun said:

Actually, it does.

Here's a little tip. When a prospect or player doesn't pan out in a trade, it's a bad trade. See, Kazmir for Zambrano.

It really, really doesn't. If you and I make a trade today that makes total sense on paper that everyone agrees is fair... and then something happens in 6 months that makes it one sided that doesn't change the fundamental fact that when we made the trade it was fair. You never know how a trade will work out. You make it based on the knowledge you have. And part of that knowledge is the reality that prospects flake out. Players get hurt. Guys drop off. This shit happens. Using hindsight to counter conventional wisdom is just unfair. The Pirates had no idea Vogelsang would flake out because NO ONE did.

Again, I'm not really saying the Pirates are a well run organization. Small market issues are obviously a big part of their problem but other teams have adjusted better. My problem is that if we take this "what did you get on trade returns" approach it seems flawed because... damn near every player you've named sucks. Sean Casey? SHOULD they have gotten more for a below average hitting 1B? At least we haven't mentioned Jack Wilson yet. The Pirates routinely trade away mediocre talent. When they trade better talent like Brian Giles we've seen them score packages like Bay and Perez. We've also seen them get bad deals, but that's the nature of this stuff. But all these mediocre guys? There's a reason they have nothing to show from them. Their value sucked. That's not the Pirates' fault. This isn't the Twins selling Santana for 2 cents on the dollar or the Rangers moving Young and Gonzalez for Adam Eaton. Its mediocre major leaguer moved for a few mediocre prospects. That's what most baseball trades are.

The real criticism of the Pirates is that they've been so unable to get anything BUT mediocre talent for so long. THAT is their responsibility and we've seen plenty of small market teams develop GOOD talent they're forced to lose after a few years. I have no idea about the internal makeup in the Pirates to judge that but I DO see moves in the right direction of late. McCutchen is a serious prospect. The Pirates did a good job getting Jose Tabata from the Yanks for Nady, a deal I think the Yankees got the worst of and were stupid for doing. They got Tim Alderson, ranked 45th overall by Baseball America, for FREDDY SANCHEZ. So they do in theory of legitimate prospects right now. Whether those players pan out and what happens with them, we can only wait and see.

I certainly don't think they're a good organization. But they've done some good things of late that at least could give me hope if I were a Pirates fan.

[Lucky]

Aug 15, 2009 14:30:59 GMT -5 Jack Quinn said:

Yeah, and I get that they are operating under a smaller budget than most teams, but hell, even the Marlins and Rays have been able to keep SOME of their good players.

Have they really? I actually can't think of one Marlin they signed when he went to free agency. Miguel Cabrera, AJ Burnett, Carl Pavano. They just manage to get talent good enough that they compete with them before they hit free agency, like Hanley. Like TB they signed Hanley to a deal that paid him through his arb years to get a few of his free agent years but it remains to be seen if they (a) have a chance at him when the deal is done, or (b) hang on to him when the deal gets expensive or shop him like many think TB will do with Crawford this winter.

Still, that's more than the Pirates have done and that does seem a fair criticism. But I think they've actually done a BETTER job over the last 18 months.

1. Grow/Find good players
2. Trade them off when they get expensive for prospects that will never amount to anything.
3. Trade those lousy prospects for equally lousy prospects and call it rebuilding

Again, the problem as I can see it is that they're failing in step 1 for the most part. This isn't the Marlins or Rays' wealth of talent here. This is Sean Casey, Jack Wilson, and Adam LaRoche.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Wright just got nailed in the head by Cain. I want to cry.