[jetskid48]

Lets preview this up like old times.

WWE Champion Triple H v. Randy Orton

World Heavyweight Champion Edge vs. John Cena vs. Big Show (Triple Threat Match)

Intercontinental Champion JBL vs. Rey Mysterio

Jeff Hardy vs. Matt Hardy (Extreme Rules Match)

WWE Tag Team Champions The Colons vs. World Tag Team Champions The Miz and John Morrison (Unified Tag Team Championship Lumberjack Match)

Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker

Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Shelton Benjamin v. CM Punk v. MVP v. Kane v. Mark Henry v. Kofi Kingston v. Christian v. Finlay

25-Diva Battle Royal

Chris Jericho vs. Rowdy Roddy Piper, "Superfly" Jimmy Snuka, and Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (with Ric Flair and Mickey Rourke)



From my count, that seems like a low number 9-match Wrestlemania, which either means every match is going to get a good amount of time, or we're going to get some other stuff littered around to fill the time a 10th match usually would get.

This card doesn't scream star power/mega built matches, but it looks to have either story or workrate or both attached to most of the matches other than the Diva and IC title matches to make it feel Wrestlemania-ey enough.

One gripe I have about the card is I saw the makings of a good 4-way U.S. title storyline going on on Smackdown the last month and thought that should have been the secondary belt on the line, especially with Rey-Rey/JBL not having any story at all other than JBL's possible "moment", but I guess they needed Shelton in the MitB.

Same probably goes as to why there's no ECW title match. Christian was needed for MitB and there seems to be no need for a Swagger/Finlay match. But I think we'll get a Swagger appearance...but gulp an Austin Stunner to go along with it.

I do very much like that were getting a unified Tag Title match, because it should have a match on the card, and these teams can be capable of a really fun match if given the time. I kinda hate lumberjack matches though. Has there been a good one in the last 10 years?

I think the top four matches should give us Wrestlemania worthy matches [Hardys, World/WWE Championships, HBK/Taker], and of course the MitB. If any of the other matches can give us a surprise or two, or some surprising workrate, while it won't be a top Wrestlemania for sure, it could still wind up being a pretty good one.

To bad we couldn't get a game going this year. I'll give my picks later tomorrow. What are everyone elses?

[creepy]

I thought you died.


HHH

EDGE

JBL

JEFF

COLONS

UT

CHRISTIAN

SOME CHICK

PIPER TEAM



Although Orton might win with some chicanary and get his comeupance some other time. The E likes a swerve or two. I don't care.

[Tommy]

Orton
Edge
Rey
Jeff
Miz & Morrison
Taker (I think this has Match of the Night possibilities, only because Kane AND Mark Henry are in MitB)
Shelton
Gail Kim
Jericho

[Moosehead Jack]

WWE Champion Triple H v. Randy Orton - Orton SHOULD win this because it would keep what has been a fairly interesting story going, but I am sure HHH will win. Come on E, surprise me

World Heavyweight Champion Edge vs. John Cena vs. Big Show (Triple Threat Match) a lot of people would like to see Kane get a title run because of all the shit angles he has done in the last few years, I kind of feel the same way about Show. Give him the title, let him have a nice long run with it. That said, I have a feeling Cena walks away with the title.

Intercontinental Champion JBL vs. Rey Mysterio - If I were running the show, JBL would win, then announce his retirement as the undefeated Intercontinental champion and retire back to the announce table. I am not running things. I have a feeling Rey wins the title

Jeff Hardy vs. Matt Hardy (Extreme Rules Match) - I have no idea really, I don't watch SD, so I have no idea what this feud is about. I hate Matt a little less than Jeff, so I hope he cheats to win

WWE Tag Team Champions The Colons vs. World Tag Team Champions The Miz and John Morrison (Unified Tag Team Championship Lumberjack Match) - People tell me Carlito has been a lot better since teaming with his brother. That may be the case, but I still don't like him. Miz and Morrison are awesome though, so they should win

Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - you know, I have no doubt this will be a great match, I also have no doubt that I really don't care about it one bit. HBK bores me for the most part, I just don't care, and to me, the streak is the most contrived thing in all of wrestling, whether it is Goldberg or Taker. It really means nothing. I guess I will pick UT to win here, keep the streak alive in hopes that he will finally call it a career and go away so he can go into the HOF as "undefeated at WM"

Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Shelton Benjamin v. CM Punk v. MVP v. Kane v. Mark Henry v. Kofi Kingston v. Christian v. Finlay - This seems like a fairly obvious match since you can seemingly eliminate over half the field right from the start. Shelton, MVP, Henry, Kofi, Finlay - I just can't see any of them getting in line for a title shot. Punk, I can, especially if Orton wins the title from HHH or Edge retains against Show and Cena. If Cena wins, I could see Kane getting the shot so they can feed him to Cena to rebuild Cena as this unstoppable superman. Christian.....he is kind of the wild card because I could see him working against HHH, Orton, Show, Cena or Edge. Too many options for awesome there though, so I think I will go with Kane somehow getting the upset

25-Diva Battle Royal - Mae Young, and it will suck

Chris Jericho vs. Rowdy Roddy Piper, "Superfly" Jimmy Snuka, and Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (with Ric Flair and Mickey Rourke) - There is really no reason, story wise, for Jericho to win here. If he wins, I guess it proves him right and makes the legends look bad for hanging on, and I can't see the E going that route. Course, having Jericho lose, by any means, makes him look weak as hell. It basically means he didn't have enough to put any one of three guys who hasn't wrestled in, what, 10 years? down for the three count. And leaves him with what exactly to do after that? My guess is that Jericho loses, it sucks, and then they conveniently forget this angle and Jericho goes after Rey and the IC title again



This is not something I would spend money on, but its not just WM, its wrestling in general right now (even you TNA) I just don't really care at this point and watch out of habit, and with the hopes that at some point, they will turn the corner and start doing something interesting again.

There is some potential for good here, but I just have a feeling we are not going to be overly surprised after this show.

If I could fantasy book just a bit, have Jericho, Christian and Edge all get screwed out of their matches. The three Canadians are not happy with this turn of events and decide they are going to do something about it. Hell maybe even bring over that Tyson kid from ECW (isn't he Canadian?) And a new faction is born, either to feud with Legacy, or to move to SD and dominate that show.

[punk/core]

Apr 5, 2009 2:31:07 GMT -5 jetskid48 said:

One gripe I have about the card is I saw the makings of a good 4-way U.S. title storyline going on on Smackdown the last month and thought that should have been the secondary belt on the line.

I only remember three... Chavo, Shelton, MVP. Who is the other one?

[jetskid48]

Apr 5, 2009 14:02:57 GMT -5 punk/core said:

Apr 5, 2009 2:31:07 GMT -5 jetskid48 said:

One gripe I have about the card is I saw the makings of a good 4-way U.S. title storyline going on on Smackdown the last month and thought that should have been the secondary belt on the line.

I only remember three... Chavo, Shelton, MVP. Who is the other one?

I could have sworn R-Truth was apart of it for a while there, but I can be wrong. Either way, that's an easier stretch to get him in there then to create a Rey/JBL feud out of no where.

In that case, I would have scrapped the IC title match, threw Rey in the MitB along with Kendrick or Evan Bourne (purely for crazy stunts and nothing else) to make up for Shelton and MVP, then had JBL promise to do something never done at Wrestlemania, which would have been come down and retire with the belt, only to have his night and heat ruined by the Austin-stunner-we-all-know-is-coming, instead of Austin ruining Swagger's heat as I predict, we still get relatively the same MitB match (unless you were a person that thought MVP would win...), and an extra mid-belt match that would have been tons better than the IC one we will have.

On that note, my picks:

Diva Battle Royal: I think Beth Phoenix takes this one by eliminating Trish Stratus to win it. Trish doesn't seem to ever be coming back, and she owes Beth the rub after beating her and Santino in Toronto a few months back.

IC Title: I would have had this be something like Mask v. Career if they wanted to add an intregue or story to this at all. Instead, I think JBL is going to be retiring the belt to set up a tournament Rey will eventually win. Rey has gone over him enough times already that if JBL is retiring, he probably gets a win finally.

Legends Match: I think Jericho handles two of the three legends easily (probably Steamboat and Superfly because Piper is probably a level higher to the WWE then them two) then gets taken to the limit by Piper (close calls, not a long match), winning with some cheating, then allowing Rourke or Flair or everyone to kick his ass a little after the match so the legends can have a happy ending.

MitB: Might be my one shocker of the night, but I'm going with MVP. It seems almost too easy to give it to Christian, and while they have had the same person get the case twice in their careers, it hasn't been twice in the same match, so I'll strike Punk out for that. It seems a little late in his career for Kane to really be a main eventer anymore, and if he's going to be fed to Cena eventually, they can easily do that without the case. Shelton...well...he's Shelton. I don't think they took the title off him to elevate him to the next level, I think they took it off him to elevate MVP back to his previous stature quickly. It seems they're getting ready to build MVP to the next level here as he passed their "test" in the losing streak and probably has enough behind him now to make a nice little run to the top. Maybe he's the first not to win the belt, or maybe he's the first to challenge for the ECW title instead, but I think much like when Kennedy won it, it's just MVP's moment.

Icon v. Streak: They built it as well as they could to make HBK seem to have a chance, but he doesn't. If HBK jobbed to Cena and Angle at Wrestlemanias, he sure as hell isn't going over Taker ever at Wrestlemania. But he will have a great match.

Hardy v. Hardy: I don't think this whole thing works if Matt loses. Being extreme rules, this feuds either taking a long break or ending after tonight, but if you put over Matt here, maybe you can set up a possible Hart v. Hart type rematch in a cage if Jeff goes on to win the belt sometime this year. He won't be hurt by losing this match, but Matt has to win this match for his heel turn to matter.

Tag Title Unification: They made the first nice Tag Feud in a while with these two teams, but they're not even at all. It will be a huge shock to me if they aren't putting the belts on Miz and Morrison. While Miz and Morrison can probably work with any tag team, the only option for the Colons if they won would be Legacy, and they seem to be in their own world for now...at least till the draft.

World Heavyweight Championship: I really do think Show has a good chance in this one. I see no reason why he couldn't be a champion for a while on Smackdown. It could make for an interesting turn to the Show/Edge feud, and there would be a ton of faces to throw at Show if they're looking for opponents. But I'm still going with Edge. Even when he has the advantage in this feud, he's still seemed on the ropes, which makes me think he takes advantage of a mistake by someone to make a pin and win this.

WWE Championship: Orton is the future, and Raw needs a belt. If I had to choose which title match I was more sure of, I'd say this one.

Orton has been on the quick climb to becoming the mega heel of the company since he's been back from injury, and this is going to be the culminating moment. I think they're going for a new super group, or an unstoppable heel champion. With building Legacy around a champion, that is possible. And of course, gives them the equal heel force to eventually put against Cena if they want to go that way.

I wouldn't put it past them to have a McMahon screw here. I think the time of the Vince heel turns are over at this point and his age. If there had to be one McMahon that turns, I think it's Shane. But I don't think any will.

And that's all. It's Wrestlemania, so I know I'll like it. Hopefully they build something here that will entertain some of the others that for whatever reason decide to buy or watch this online tonight.

[Tommy]

Apr 5, 2009 15:05:18 GMT -5 jetskid48 said:

Apr 5, 2009 14:02:57 GMT -5 punk/core said:

I wouldn't put it past them to have a McMahon screw here. I think the time of the Vince heel turns are over at this point and his age. If there had to be one McMahon that turns, I think it's Shane. But I don't think any will.

Stephanie.

[DevSop]

That.

[Demko]

With the exception of UT vs. HBK... that entire PPV was a load of horseshit. From top to bottom, there were missed spots (some of them almost bad enough to kill some people). There wasn't enough sizzle to any match to make it watchable. And even UT/HBK went on far longer than it should have.

The most telling moment of the night was Kid Rock's "concert", when he stopped singing in the hopes that the crowd would take over on the chorus of Bawitaba, and you could almost hear crickets.

Worst Wrestlemania since Lawrence Taylor/Bam Bam Bigelow.

[BTR]

Maybe it's because I haven't seen one since WM 21, but I actually enjoyed most of the night. Take away Kid Rock, a minute of JBL's stalling after losing, a few minutes off the middle of HHH/Orton and fix the ending up a bit, and you have few complaints from me. Not the greatest by any means, but I think it lived beyond its card.

[jetskid48]

I'm gonna call overreaction on Demko, but, there's some things...

A Pay-Per-View is very much about the final match of the night, and it's possible the main event could drag down the entire event. I didn't think it was a disaster by any means, but I question HHH winning, which in my opinion kills any chance of Orton being a strong heel here (I'm gonna throw something out here...is it possible he failed a drug test? This was probably the thing that has thrown me most in booking in a while. It's not even a swerve, its just counter to the building of Orton completely.) and I question the weird ending of the match. The night had the high spots, and big crashing/beatdown spots between all the other matches, so I'm even going to say I think there was a lack of things left to give us by the end of the night. Blood and a broken announcers table seemed to be needed.

I think the desire to have faces come out winners in the big 25th made them make some questionable decisions with the last two matches. I liked the Cena/Edge/Show match enough, but they really needed a filler match in the middle to change the pace a little from the Taker/HBK marathon and give them more of a chance there.

The rest of the night I enjoyed tremendously. Even with Shelton screwing up that stupid powerbomb, he made it up by the one he gave MVP to the outside, which I think was cooler than what was supposed to happen. I thought Kofi had a nice little breakout with his performance, and I'm more than fine with another Punk case run. I didn't think this was a good group for MitB, but they worked quite well with each other...even Kane and Mark Henry did good with what they had.

Short was good for Rey/JBL and at least gave a 'fun' moment that a regular match with them wouldn't have.

Divas...well...Santino time, and that's the best that could have happened, because it wasn't going to be a good match, and it wasn't at all.

I thought the Hardys had a really good match that showcased them a bit. Had no idea what the hell the point of the double table splash was, but it was a nice visual. Matt getting the pin was good.

They booked the Legends match exactly how they had to. Jericho went over, and they let Steamboat show that the old guys still have a little in them. Genuinely surprised about how great Steamboat moved. He was jumping and flying and flipping around like not many other older guys can. I think the random Snuka appearence each year should just be handed to Steamboat for now on. Big props to Jericho for getting more than enough out of a match that had the possibility of disaster written all over it.

And finally, the Taker/HBK match was tremendous. Over 30 minutes with good spots and nice tension for the last 15 minutes of it. They did a great job of making it look like HBK had a chance, and with Taker never ever ever going to lose at Wrestlemania, that's what you look for. Another match of the year candidate for both, even at their respective ages.

Not nearly in the best category for Wrestlemanias. I wish the last two matches kept the rhythm of matches going better than thought, not that I thought they were terrible, but they weren't great like they should be. I wouldn't put it in the worst few Wrestlemania's either, but its probably in one of the next few levels. The lack of sizzle with any match other than HBK/Taker, and more quanitity of quality matches rather than quantity of major event matches hurts quite a bit.

[Mr. Dashbee]

I ordered the PPV, and I am happy with how it turned out. Bear in mind, the bar had been seriously lowered over the past 12 months, so it was an easy sell for the WWE to look good at WM25. Plus, I was more into the "aura" of the event, as I get excited for WM26 in my neck of the woods next year.

MITB: I half think the WWE either leaked a false match order, or changed it up just to piss off the IWC. I think they're leaking bad info on purpose now, so let's go with that. I expected the worst from this MITB, and it turned out better than that. Shelton performed well, even covering up for his botch quite nicely. Teasing a Mark Henry tor rope spot, followed by Hornswoggle's spot, and finally Shelton off of the big ladder...nice. This was the fifth MITB, and they were able to do some new things, and didn't have to use a single table or chair, leaving that to the Hardys. I really thought Shelton was in for the win, so Punk was a surprise. I do fear he'll become the first person to unsccessfully cash in.

Divas Battle Royal: Pure crap. The match itself was fine. It was a Divas Battle Royal, what do you expect? My big problem was the lack of introductions. I don't care about the current Divas...but Sunny, Torrie Wilson, Molly Holly, Victoria & Jackie Gayda all deserved a proper intro. Hell, the only ones I even picked out were Molly & Victoria.

Jericho vs. Piper, Snuka & Steamboat: Surprisingly good. This benefited from the bar being lowered. With thoughts of Jericho vs. Rourke, vs. Flair or vs. Austin, this is a disapointment on paper. But they did what I had hoped, and had Snuka & Piper do what they could & get out. The real match was Steamboat vs. Jericho. A dream match that could never have happened in both of their primes. Jericho sold like a king, and Steamboat proved why he was so good for so long. I really hope they're using him with all of the young talent possible, because he is the man. Jericho fighting Flair and then the Rourke confrontation were both fine. Who knows, Jericho vs. Rourke could have sucked, and this all worked for me.

Hardy vs. Hardy: Again, another match where the build seemed to lose steam, and the bar was lowered. I liked this match, despite the slower pace. You figure these two had to have wrestled each other 1000 times on the indies (since they both worked like 3 gimmicks in Omega). Hell, I saw them wrestle each other in a dark match at a RAW taping in Richmond, VA in 1995. Using tables, ladders & chairs was appropriate here. The double table spot was strange, but Jeff's always been the crazy one, so it works. I really think it was them just finding a slightly innovative spot to use. I liked Matt going over. I hope they keep them apart until Summer Slam, just like Breat vs. Owen from 15 years ago. Put a title on Jeff or Matt, and have them wrestle in a cage (or cell) at Summer Slam.

I-C Title: I'm glad it was short. Not that they weren't capable of a good match with more time, but we just saw it on Monday. It popped the crowd, and puts Rey over. I expect we'll see JBL in the boradcast booth. I really expected a Stone Cold run-in once JBL grabbed the mic.

Taker-HBK: Your true main event, IMO. I loved it, from the symbolism of HBK coming down from the heavens and Taker coming up from the depths of hell. HBK kicks out of the tombstone when everyone thought it was over, and they proceeded to put on a great finish from there. A true WrestleMania classic, and it possibly puts Michaels at the top of the list in terms of WM performers (if he wasn't there already). The Taker dive into the fake cameraman was awesome, and made me cringe. And kudos for the countout drama.

World Title: Looking at the overall results, this probably should have gone on last, if the main had to be a title match. I've truly come around on Cena, and have no clue why. I liked the entrance, and liked his performance in the match. And let's face it--for the kids who are watching now, he's their Hogan. It worked for me.

Hall of Fame/Austin's Farewell: Well done, WWE...well done. When he walked off at the end of the segment, you knew he was coming back out. It was "Vintage Stone Cold" (one point to JR), and it was great. If that was indeed his final appearance, it worked. I would have loved a bigger surprise (like the JBL run-in & Stunner I had been calling for since he was first announced), the 4-wheeler and beer bash were fun. Speaking of the 4-wheeler, I'd love to walk through the warehouse where the WWE keeps all of this crap. They throw NOTHING away, and it makes for some great fun.

WWE Title: I liked it as an old school brawl. They didn't really do anything new. Orton probably should have gone over, but with it going on last, I figured Trips would take it. If Orton did go over, then it would prove that they really saw him as the new centerpiece of the company. The main reason I think it should have gone on before the World Title match is because I think it should have been a sports entertainment brawl. Complete with McMahons and Legacy involvement. If you're going to make up contrived rules (that played a part, but too small of a part), you might as well go all the way and have crazy interference and extra curriculars. Then you could put Orton over, and let Cena send the fans home happy. I did have a pipe dream when they were on the floor: Triple H smshes the monitor over Orton's head, Armstrong calls for the bell, and Orton us declared the winner and new champ by DQ. H throws a fit, destroys Orton some more and leaves. JR, Cole & Lawler start to close the show, until Punk's music hits. He cashes in right then & there, and takes the WWE title. Now THAT'S a WrestleMania moment.

If someone asks me what I thought of WM tomorrow, I'll probably say "it was fine." WM shouldn't be fine, it should be great. But as I said at first, the bar had been lowered so far over the past 12 months, it makes this WM look better than it probably really was.

There was tons of talk about WrestleMania moments. What do you think you'll remember for a long time?

For me, I think they created four true WrestleMania moments:
1. Shelton's dive
2. Ricky Steamboat!
3. Jeff Hardy's missed legdrop
4. Austin's farewell.

[Demko]

Overreaction? Maybe, but let's go through the list, match by match:

MitB: Missed spots galore. A slightly humorous Swoggle spot, jumping off of Mark Henry, but otherwise from that, it's mostly been done before. I didn't see any of the usual innovative ladder spots, nor were any other objects used (as had been in years past). The only ray of hope in my eyes was Christian's bounce-back, but that was immediately quashed by Kane, and then, despite the boos, the win was given to CM Punk for the second year in a row. Overall a disappointment.

Divas' Battle Royal: Preceded by Kid Rock's "timewarp to 1999" with performances of Bawitaba and Cowboy (WTF?!). No special recognition AT ALL given to returning divas, even though I personally thought every single one of them deserved it. I can understand not introducing every single diva in the match, but skip all the usual suspects and give entrances (or at least announcements) of the special returns. The whole match was a complete trainwreck, with (again) missed spots EVERYWHERE. Santino was the only real highlight here (I got a vague chuckle out of his ring attire, but that was about it), and they telegraphed the ending from the moment they promised to call the winner of the match "Miss Wrestlemania".

Jericho vs. Legends: Alright, I'll give this match the credit it deserves. Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat is THE MAN. I mean, c'mon... the guy gets inducted into the HoF the night before, and still pulls off, easily, a 3 1/2 star performance against Jericho. His "skinning the cat" spot was FAN-FUCKING-TASTIC. However, that being said, Piper and Snuka were embarassments to themselves, just proving Jericho's point in the first place. And the post-match "scuffle" with Rourke was contrived and pointless. I think they were trying to force the same moment they got from Big Show/Mayweather last year, but failed miserably. Sad, considering all the training Rourke actually had to do for The Wrestler. He couldn't even pull off a simple wrestling move or two?

Hardy vs. Hardy: The announcers refused to shut up about the fucking dog. I mean, Jesus Christ... you'd think there wasn't even a fucking match going on. The Pillmanized Twist of Fate at the end was a pretty sick-looking visual, I'll give them that, but this match would have had so much more potential if they hadn't been handcuffed by being on the same show as the MitB (they didn't want to outshine that lackluster performance).

JBL/Mysterio: First of all, Rey's mask. Was he trying to pull off The Joker? Because he looked a lot more like Doink the Clown to me. As for the "match": way too much hype for way too little. They tried to play it off as the shortest match in WM history, trying to create another contrived "historical moment", but they apparently forgot that they did the exact same thing last year with Kane/Chavo, and in fact, did it in a shorter timeframe. Then JBL's drawn-out announcement about his retiring was overblown and overdramaticized. Also, a shame that the guy couldn't go out with a little dignity. Even as a heel, if he'd actually announced his retirement, the crowd would have shown him the respect that he deserves for his career.

UT vs. Shawn Michaels: Excellent match. Easily match of the night, by a mile, and maybe even MotY so far. I dug on the visuals of white vs. black, good vs. evil, God vs. the Devil. For a match that really had no official backstory, this match entertained me on every possible level. I thought Michael's entrance was a TAD cheesy, but I didn't care. But even this match had at least a few botched spots, most notably Michael's attempt at a tornado DDT out of the bodyslam position.

Triple Threat match: Cena's entrance started out cool (with the couple-dozen Cena lookalikes), but then turned cheesy (when they all started doing the 'you can't see me' gesture). The spot of the match (Cena lifting Show and Edge together) is completely ruined, in my opinion, when Edge falls off the pile. Everything else in this match, we've seen before. Edge spears Vickie, Show goes through the barricade, Cena's "deal with the Devil" (teaming up with Edge against Show). It's all been done.

HoF inductees: Each and every one of the men on that stage, just as deserving (if not moreso), gets completely shit on when the Cyborg Redneck comes out, confronts absolutely nobody, drinks beer for 15 minutes and then DRIVES out of the arena (didn't a single official object to this showing of poor judgement, drinking and driving out of the arena?). And apparently, whatever this was, it was more important than the UNIFICATION of two tag-team titles, because that match (which probably should have happened here) got shunned to the pre-show. Really?

Finally, Orton vs. HHH: The stupid stipulation at the beginning really handcuffed this match. These two should have had the no-DQ brawl that Matt & Jeff had earlier. If any match deserved an amped-up level of violence, it was this. Plus, I agree that the booking of Orton has taken a complete 180 from where it was last week, so I'm guessing failed drug test too. Trips' mirror-entrance was kinda cool, but I had to laugh, because my first statement was "Well, the glass just broke... where's Austin?"

The middle 15 minutes of this 20 minute match were boring and completely uninspired. When the ref bump occurred and we finally entered end-game, the match got a LITTLE bit better, but not really by much. And that ending really came out of nowhere. I think this match deserved a little bit more time, but I understand Vince calling for the ending out of the blue to get the PPV over before 11pm. Something tells me that they could have shaved a few minutes off of Kid Rock, or the Divas match, or Austin's "celebration" to give this one the time it deserved.

So, all in all, I don't think my initial reaction was an overreaction. I went back and reviewed in my mind, the high spots and low spots of this WM, and in my opinion, I still believe this was the worst WM since WM XI.

[punk/core]

Demko overreact? Never...

[Lucky]

Apr 6, 2009 0:01:46 GMT -5 jetskid48 said:

A Pay-Per-View is very much about the final match of the night, and it's possible the main event could drag down the entire event.

I just want to go on record as completely and utterly disagreeing with this philosophy. This is, IMO, a WWE built philosophy espoused by lifetime WWE fans. Its the philosophy that allows midcard titles to be made meaningless and midcard wrestlers to become marginalized. If the first half of a PPV kicks ass and the 2nd half sucks then I can walk away as satisfied as if the first half sucks and the 2nd half rocks. Don't get me wrong, obviously last impressions mean something and things later in the show can suck away good. But not everyone comes for the same match. Some people are there for the undercard. If I ranked the matches I was most interested in going in the first ones would be the dark match and the opener and the title matches would be well towards the bottom. And someone else has the exact opposite order. Many, many, MANY fans CAN get great satisfaction out of a PPV even if the main event fails to deliver.

That being said that was all theoretical because WM's undercard was as underwhelming as its main events.

Divas...well...Santino time, and that's the best that could have happened, because it wasn't going to be a good match, and it wasn't at all.

No, the best that could have happened was exactly what numerous people have expressed in this thread. That the special guests who fans have an attachment to would actually be given ANY kind of showcase so that we even knew they were there. Lillian running off the names of the 25 Divas as they came out in 10 second intervals would have done the job fine. And it also would have allowed the beautiful women of the WWE to do exactly what they get paid for. Show off their looks. Its simply inexcusable and mindless that WWE failed to deliver this. Is it a HUGE thing? Is it horrible show killing decision bad? No. But its a simple thing that there really was NO reason for WWE not to do since it would have taken 3 minutes tops and could have worked by shaving 20 seconds off each video, one Kid Rock song, or actually going an extra 3 minutes since I'm going to assume WM ended WELL before 11 like all WWE PPVs do (although I didn't watch the clock so I could be wrong). And hell, 1 minute for the special guests would have been fine.

Show was forgettable and pedestrian, aside from Taker/HBK. That's fine for Backlash but if you buy into the hype of WM and the pricetag that's a failure. I don't think it was utter shit or anything, but it wasn't good and it certainly wasn't special.

[BTR]

Apr 6, 2009 2:28:28 GMT -5 Lucky said:

since I'm going to assume WM ended WELL before 11 like all WWE PPVs do (although I didn't watch the clock so I could be wrong). And hell, 1 minute for the special guests would have been fine.

Actually, the show ended at exactly 11. It seemed like they rushed the ending of the ME (ref audibly stopping HHH from punching Orton because they had a minute left) and about 8 seconds after HHH got the pin they switched to the video package.

Not that they could have shaved time off anywhere. Austin (although if this was really his last beer bash then fine, but I won't get upset unless he's back in 6 months), Kid Rock for sure and especially, getting Rourke to stop milking it, same for JBL, and yeah there's time. And I'm disappointed in some things, too. But I sure walked away from this one more satisfied than I did than the last WM I saw in its entirety, WM 21.

[Lucky]

Oh well, my bad then. Just a wrong assumption.

Stil, yeah. I wasn't asking for much with the Divas and it could have been found. WWE's weird about the video packages. I mean, they're awesome and all but... WE ALREADY BOUGHT THE SHOW! Why they keep selling it during it I don't understand. Some of that shit can be cut down a bit.

I mean, cutting the tag match is inexcusable but its a real time management issue. If you overbooked WM what's done is done and you have to cut something. You should have never overbooked the show, but saying that doesn't change it. But the lack of Divas introduction is just ridiculous because its so simple to solve and its the only reason those women are there. No one cares about "Miss Wrestlemania" or the battle royal. We just wanted to see some old faces.

[Fire-Babe]

I'll agree we don't need the superextended video packages, but the non-wrestling watchers who were at my house enjoyed them, as it gave them backstory. so :shrug:

They were also nice times for bathroom breaks and refilling of beverages and plates, so the dvr didn't get too much of a work out.

And you know, I don't buy the whole "not enough time" thing. It's fucking Wrestlemania, and it started at 6:30. With video packages THERE too. PLENTY of time for the Tag Team match. Even if it isn't, who CARES??? So it runs 4 hours and 15 minutes or whatever. I'm thinking NOT putting on anticipated matches is going to impact your buy-rate just a little more than going over 5-10 minutes. Sheesh.

Of course, that may just be my disappointment at not being able to show my friend Anne what all the fuss was about Morrison's abs.

I sucked at picking again this year. Newbie who had only ever seen "The Wrestler" and "didn't get it" won.

[Byrntrigan]

I hate to tell you dear, but Anne is gay




Or her husband has abs like that...

But I vote for gay.

[Lucky]

Fire, sure, the video packages do have story telling purpose. Last year I watched with non-fans for the first time and they too appreciated the stories and probably wouldn't have enjoyed HBK/Flair as much without the video package to fill them in on why we were watching FOR that match. And that's why I don't suggest they cut them completely or anything. But I think WWE is just so proud of how good they are (and they are) they get carried away with the WM video packages. You can tell the Hardy story quicker than that. I know you can. Just shaving a little time isn't hard even if it means trimming 10 seconds of fat off a video. Maybe instead of replaying Matt's turn three times you do it twice. Maybe 30 seconds less of Hardy memories. I'm a video editor and I know how painful it is to cut away pieces from your awesome video, but it can always be done if there's a good reason.

Finding 15 minutes for the tag match is tough and might not have been possible. Finding 2-3 minutes of Diva introductions is not.

The problem with going over time is that the cable company will just turn you off at 11 if you haven't bought that time ahead of time. So if they book the show and realize they don't have enough time? You gotta deal. But the problem is that WWE are morons for overbooking the show. One of two things happened. Either they fucked up really seriously on the timing in a really amateurish way or they changed something at the last minute. And given WWE's rep changing something at the last minute makes sense, but if you end up booting scheduled and advertised matches for it? That's just something that you owe your an audience an apology for. That's the sort of thing that you SHOULD never do voluntarily.

[jetskid48]

Totally agree about skipping matches. Who knows what your audience is buying the PPV for. If a tag unification match is something that put someone over the top, it has to be in there. That being said, I heard its available to webcast people to watch, or was available, which is bullshit. Why should people who paid full price on TV (where most WWE programming appears) lose a part of the biggest PPV of the year because they continued watching WWE on a TV like most of America?

Back to the main events dragging down the event stuff...its not that I feel like the whole event sucks if the Main Event does, but the awkward ending lended itself to a non-complete ending to the event. It just kinda happened. I think its because the way HHH ended it, we either didn't know the ending was here until it was, or we're accustomed to last second wins in big main events, and this one was just domination at the end, and bam, right into video and over. Didn't really leave a lasting image like most Wrestlemanias try to. If they were going to go the route they did, they needed blood, and if HHH was going to get back on Orton, punching doesn't do it; he should have been pounding on him with the Sledgehammer until the end. Like others, I think the stipulation put on the match was ridiculous and unneeded. I'm a big believer in non-gimmicked Wrestlemania main events. I don't even want to see triple threat matches end the night. But back to the weighing down thing, obviously it didn't kill my night as assumed because I did enjoy the rest of the card.

The divas thing was going to be a mess no matter what. As much as I love having Sunny back, the faster it went, the better. I would, though, maybe do something tonight on Raw to recognize them since they're probably still around, but I'm sure to the returners, being back for one night was more of a highlight than an announcement.

Addressing some of the other things...

The video packages probably serve three purposes:
(a) To build up matches on the card as major events. It's Wrestlemania, so I'd hope all matches (outside of MitB) have enough history that the matches mean enough to have long packages.
(b) To bring new or returning viewers what has happened up to this date.
(c) For future viewers years down the line so they understand what happened to lead up to this PPV when they're watching this on DVD 5, 10, 15 years from now.

As a kid, I always got annoyed when I'd watch a Wrestlemania or other PPV on video and there would be a ton of matches either with no background, or lack or a reminder what brought us to that point, so I'm happy its there. My recommendation though, would be to keep all of the packages down to 2 minute packages and main events to about 3, anything else is overkill for live viewers, and save those much longer packages for the home video. We get these long drawn out packages every week on free tv, its enough by the time we're paying to watch.

To be fair about the Kid Rock stuff (and I can't believe I'm about to defend any Kid Rock appearence anywhere), Wrestlemania is supposed to be the time where they blend a little celebrity with their wrestlers, so if they have to take 10 minutes out of a pay-per-view to get a relatively big act to play a few songs, (if it had been something of a one-hit wonder [think Baha Men], that would have been stupid) then I think it has to happen. Of course, if you do this, you can't skip matches. It's a matter of that. It's a non-deal regularly, but you have to find 5 minutes to run a tag match if so.

And Demko, I can definitely see why you or other people would hate this ppv. I just fail to find negatives in the same things you do. But I'd probably be annoyed about costumes, announcing, and extracurriculars too if I wasn't feeling entertained.

Finally, I have absolutely zero problem with the Austin stuff. Whether you like him or not, he is the biggest wrestling attraction probably ever. He just got the highest honor the WWE can give someone, and its Wrestlemania in his home state. Yes, all those other people meant a lot to the business, but you can't possibly compare them to what Austin meant to the WWE, and for that, 5 minutes of celebrating and letting him bask in 70,000 people cheering him is worth it.

[Moosehead Jack]

honestly, I couldn't care less about the diva battle royal. IMO if ANYTHING was going to get cut to a dark match, that should have been it. I am sure there were some people who wanted to see it, but I can't imagine there were THAT many. Dropping a title match in favor of that garbage is just inexcusable

[jetskid48]

I'm just mad we didn't get Trish Strat-Haas.

[dragonmak]

I'll go with this being an "ok" show. I definitely don't follow wrestling as closely as i used to, but they had a lot of potential and i'm a sucker for Wrestlemania's. Wish i could have been there being that i live 40 minutes from Reliant Stadium.

WWE Tag Team Champions The Colons vs. World Tag Team Champions The Miz and John Morrison (Unified Tag Team Championship Lumberjack Match) - Would have been nice to see, but apparently tag team wrestling is a lost art to the WWE. Sorry Mother Fucker's shouldn't even had advertised the match if they were gonna put it on the pre-show that most of us couldn't even watch. Not a good sign.


Money in the Bank Ladder Match: Shelton Benjamin v. CM Punk v. MVP v. Kane v. Mark Henry v. Kofi Kingston v. Christian v. Finlay - i was surprised at this being the "official" opener for the show. It was a fun match with its fair share of missed spots. I was biased in that i was heavily pulling for MVP as my coworkers girlfriend's sister is his GF. But that being said. i liked the match - i did not want to see Kane or Mark Henry win as i didn't feel they deserved to be in the match. See Christian again in the match felt right, but i was disappointed in that he didn't really have any really nice spots. CM Punk winning was cool, but kind of a let down as he's already won this match before and his career has been elevated. Thought they should have used this opportunity to bring someone else up the card.

Kid Rock mini-concert - I like Kid Rock so this didn't bother me too bad. But if i didn't like him i would be "WTF is THIS SHIT". This is supposed to be a Wrestling PPV. If i wanna see people sing songs i'll dl their shit or watch their shit online or something. i didn't spend my hard earned money for this stuff.

25-Diva Battle Royal - No Introductions was a dumb fucking idea considering we have Diva's from the past and that have come out of retirement for this match. Why not spit on their face while their at it. The Santino this was utter stupidity and i am starting to wonder if ordering this year Mania was a mistake.

Chris Jericho vs. Rowdy Roddy Piper, "Superfly" Jimmy Snuka, and Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat (with Ric Flair and Mickey Rourke) - Hmm, i was thinking that this match is such a waste of Jerricho. However, in hindsight, i wish this could have just been a Steamboat vs Jerricho in a 1 on 1 match. Piper adn Snuka had no business being in the ring while Steamboat proved he could still go. The Mickey Rourke-Jericho thingy didn't really work. Just glad its over with and they need to move Y2J onto bigger and better things.

Jeff Hardy vs. Matt Hardy (Extreme Rules Match) - I am so glad Matt won, anytime Jeff wears face paint he reminds me of a poor Sting wannabe. The announcers proclamation that this brother vs brother matchup was more personal than others was DUMB. Wicked attempt at that insane legdrop from 20+ feet. But the lack of them talking about Matt's twist of fate with Jeff in the chair annoyed me.

Intercontinental Champion JBL vs. Rey Mysterio - I remember when an IC title match meant something good was gonna happen. This 20 second crap just didn't fit the bill. And i concur with another poster who mentioed that Rey looked more like Doink than anyone else. Joker didn't dawn on me til the announcers said something. If JBL really is retiring/quitting - He deserved better.

Shawn Michaels vs. Undertaker - Match of the NIGHT. Nothing more can be added to what has already been said. Kudo's to both men for pulling this match off. I was on the edge of my seat for so long. A true Wrestlemania CLASSIC :-)

World Heavyweight Champion Edge vs. John Cena vs. Big Show (Triple Threat Match) - I didn't think Big Show had any place in this match. Edge and Cena have been feuding for awhile. So give them a huge blowoff special stipulation type match. But it was a fun match to watch and Cena picking up both Big Show AND Edge was fucking awesome. 'gratz to Cena.

HOF Inductees - Nice job on this, the Austin bit ran a bit long, but its his last haraa. So i can handle it.

WWE Champion Triple H v. Randy Orton - This should have been 1 crazy balls out fight. With the McMahans in 1 corner and Legacy in the other. Instead we get an ok fight with HHH getting his revenge and making Ortan look so so weak. I understand with them wanting the crowd to go home happy, but the match was really underwhelming.

[Fire-Babe]

Lucky, I'd buy the 'cable company argument' 100% if it were a pre-taped event which could be made to fit a certain schedule due to the magic of editing. But it isn't. It's a live event, and while it IS pre-scripted, it's still live. All sorts of things can happen that would necessitate a longer time than planned. Given WWE's standard booking practices, and general disregard for the tag teams anyway, I can't imagine the match going more than 20 minutes, which, with a few cuts here and there, but still keeping the video recaps and the musical entertainment, would only be an overrun of maybe 10-15 minutes. I don't think the cable company cares, they have your money whether it goes 4 hours on the dot, 3:45 (which routinely pisses me off) or 4:15.