[docx]

Me and Brother X have been discussing this a little.
BroX says the Steroid Era is what it is, and you ignore it. Sammy has done what only 4 could do before him, and he gets in.
I say he's a fucking fraud, just like Beroid Bonds, and his inclusion would be a travesty. (Full disclosure: I was a Cubs fan in the heady, foolish days of my youth - I have since recovered. But there may still be some anti-Sammy residue left over.)

So how about it? Are the home runs enough to warrant inclusion? Is the fact that he's the Incredible Shrinking Man Who Only Speaks English When Not Before Congress enough to keep him out? How about the fact that he was a butcher in right field? Or, should he (and McGwire, Beroid, et al.) go in, but get the asterisk?

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Que? No hablo ingles.

Does he belong in there? No. He's a lying piece of shit who went from an annual 30-30 player to a phony bulked up masher who speaks English when it's convenient and doesn't care about the damage he's inflicted upon the sport. Will he get in? Yup. The writers can't overlook 600 HR, not to mention hitting 60+ three years in a row and more importantly, there isn't a federal case involving him and a steroid-supplying lab. He'll get in but I won't like it.

[williamssl]

And go in as a Ranger. Just like Nolan Ryan!

[Pun]

Fuck that, Tex. I'm not a Sammy fan (I don't hate him, however), but he WILL go in as a Cub.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

Huh, I thought he'd go in wearing an O's cap.

[DevSop]

I was thinking he'd go in wearing a Corky's hat from Life Goes On.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

That's saved for Clemens.

[Mikey]

No, Clemens goes in with the $ on his hat.

[Brother X]

In the interest of fact, BroX was simply considering the situation as it is. Not as I'd like it to be. I despise all of them. I'd like the lot of them flogged, drawn, quartered and force fed to a pack of hungry O'Donnels (is there another kind?).

But 600!? That's an awful lot. It seems to me that if you take out the juice, he'd still have ~500. And every eligible player with 500, save McGuire, is in the Hall.

And wow. 600 home runs is just a lot of home runs. Man.

[Lucky]

Once you lock Sammy out of the Hall for steroids all you anti-roid reformers can really go fuck yourselves. No testing, no accusations, no leaks, no nothing. He added muscle in his 20s and lost it in his late 30s. That's it. And then he pulled a lame excuse to get out of Congress' PR probe. But I pull lame excuses to get out of Jury Duty.

600 HRs and people don't want him in because his hat is too big. Its pretty stupid, really. But I've done this enough and it just gets me mad at people I like. The whole steroid outrage is a crock. Cleaning up the sport doesn't have to come down to witch hunts and punishing guys without evidence for misdeeds that weren't considered misdeeds when they did them. We just like doing that because we shitheads.

[Brother X]

luckylopez said:

Once you lock Sammy out of the Hall for steroids all you anti-roid reformers can really go fuck yourselves. No testing, no accusations, no leaks, no nothing. He added muscle in his 20s and lost it in his late 30s. That's it. And then he pulled a lame excuse to get out of Congress' PR probe. But I pull lame excuses to get out of Jury Duty.

600 HRs and people don't want him in because his hat is too big. Its pretty stupid, really. But I've done this enough and it just gets me mad at people I like. The whole steroid outrage is a crock. Cleaning up the sport doesn't have to come down to witch hunts and punishing guys without evidence for misdeeds that weren't considered misdeeds when they did them. We just like doing that because we shitheads.

I've been torn on this issue. I think (for now,maybe) that I have to side with Lucky. Even if I do personally suspect Sosa of steroid abuse, the man has a point. Unlike with any of the other principles involved, there really never has been a single piece of any kind of evidence, credible or not, to link him to it.
Bonds has Game of Shadows. Palmeiro actually tested dirty. McGuire has Canseco. Nobody has ever publicly said word one about Sosa. And in our world, if there were witnesses to it, somebody would have witnessed to it by now. Even someone with no credibility.

And I just can't get past that number 600. That's just a ridiculous fucking number. Most guys couldn't hit 600 home runs on the moon, steroids or not.

[Mikey]

Yeah, it's not like he ever said, "Well, that's just the needle I use for batting practice."

Or something like that.

[Pun]

Who here has NOT heard my story about working with a lady who knows Sammy and all but admitted the steroid use to me? If enough people want to hear it again (I know the OO folks have probably heard it several times), I'll tell it.

[Brother X]

admin said:

Who here has NOT heard my story about working with a lady who knows Sammy and all but admitted the steroid use to me? If enough people want to hear it again (I know the OO folks have probably heard it several times), I'll tell it.

I haven't.

[Lucky]

You should repeat it for BroX's benefit but I've said it before. I know and trust you, Pun. I still can't condemn the guy on 3rd hand information at best. That's the point. Personally I don't believe in locking ANYONE out of the Hall for steroids. But that's me. Once you decide you're start doing it there's a line.

Palmeiro tested positive. We KNOW he did steroids at least once beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bonds and Sheffied were tied to BALCO and their grand jury testimonies were leaked. We are about as close to knowing as we can be without really knowing.

McGwire has direct ties to Canseco, has been investigated by the Feds, and was seen with a legal supplement that later got categorized as bad. Its all circumstantial but its a large case. This is where I'd absolutely draw the line but if you have to knock him so be it.

Sosa's got nothing really. My friend knew a lady who knew him and said he took them. There's some suspicious physical changes to him, but that can be said for countless people. And he clammed up in front of Congress. But Schilling clammed up and went back on things he said in the past too. Not wanting to speak to them (when they had no real purpose or power there) could just be that.

So where does the line end? If I make a case for David Ortiz (a) increasing size and (b) greatly increasing productivity can we label him a roid case now?

[Pun]

For BroX and some others:

For the last 5 years (up until I was let go a couple weeks ago), I worked with a lady whose husband was in the Toronto Blue Jays minor league system. He had a cup of coffee with the big club in the late 90's. I think it lasted 3 games, and he only got 1 at bat. This guy was also from Sammy's home town and grew up with him. They were very good friends, keeping in touch on a weekly basis.

Well, the day after the cork incident, I called her to see what her husband's reaction was. She said he had left a message on Sammy's cell phone as soon as it happened, but he hadn't heard back. While we were talking, she said, "I hope this doesn't cause other things to come out about Sammy." She never said steroids flat out, but I don't know what else it could have been, since that's the time the rumors started heating up.

I know it's not proof, but it's enough to make me doubt his accomplishments in my mind.

[Lucky]

And as I've said, that's fine for you. For everyone else in the world its 3rd hand information at best. In fact, its presumptions based on 3rd hand information. That's the story on Sammy. Its always a "well, this kinda happened and looked sorta weird" thing. I won't argue the issue with you, Pun. You heard something from someone you trusted who you think all but said it. And I think THAT's insanely skeptical but that's your call. "Wife of Sammy's friend said 'stuff' would come out."

Bottom line, if you wanna do this roid hunt tell me RIGHT NOW where the lines exist for his guilt and who is innocent. What passes for evidence? Because Sammy's pretty low on that end. The next step seems to be "never been accused, associated, or questioned."

They're going to fuck him. I believe that after McGwire. Bonds will get in. Palmeiro won't, which is fine but questionable. McGwire won't because he was all power and everyone believes he roided. And then I think Sammy will get fucked. The good thing? The witch hunt will end there. We'll be happy to stick our heads back in the sand now and never question anyone unless things get iffy.

[docx]

Everything you're writing here makes perfect sense in a strictly logical approach. The unfortunate part, Lucky, is that a big part of being a fan is the emotional investment. Now, I'm normally a big proponent of removing the emotion from the equation - it's too mercurial and you can't rely on feelings more than reason. In the case of being a sports fan, though, I wonder if you can remove the emotion.
I want to enjoy sports. I want to vicariously feel the thrill of competition. I want to be able to look at my favorite sports figures and know that my guy is a better athlete than your guy. But I want to be a fan of the team or player that beats the other guy because he or they are better, not because they know a better pharmacist.
Another big factor that plays into it is the whole "do it for the kids" angle. Normally, I think this is the most pathetic and overused rationale for bullshit around. In this case, however, it cuts close to the bone for me. I was horrified when my son decided that he loved the Yankees. Part of that is just common sense, of course (I'd rather he admit he were a heroin junkie than a Yankees fan), but the other part was that one of the reasons was Jason Giambi. I tried setting him straight on the guy, but it's hard to argue t a kid. "Look at the home runs, Dad. Look at how often he's on SportsCenter. Etc., etc." Now, the main reason my kid liked the Yanks was ARod, and that guy's clean by all accounts, so it's a fight I'll win. And it's a fight I'll never stop, because he's my son and it's my job to guide him, but that is definitely an influence, and it's a hard influence to countermand.
I guess that the summary, for me, is that the entire scandal just makes me sad. It brings a very cynical cloud to what should be enjoyable and fun. Like I said, strictly an emotional argument.

[williamssl]

With Sammy wearing Ranger blue this season, he obviously gets a lot more coverage, and a more sympathetic ear, in local papers than I suspect he gets elsewhere.

From an article this weekend in the Ft. Worth Star Telegram contrasting Sammy with the Bonds/McGwires of the world re: Hall of Fame chances (full article LINKY)

Will Sosa be elected, or will he, like Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire before him, forever be stained by having played in the steroids era?

How will I vote? The honest answer is, I don't know yet. I'm still trying to figure all this out.

But I do think Sosa has a far better chance than Bonds or McGwire, and because of that, I present for your contemplation five reasons why he should be elected to the Hall of Fame.

1. Sheer numbers

Considering that he's on a pace to hit about 25 home runs this season, Sosa will finish the year with, say, 614 homers. If he can average 25 a year for the next three years -- not a given by any means, but certainly possible -- he'll be closing in on 700 home runs. He will have sailed past Willie Mays and be fourth on the list, with Babe's 714 in sight.

2. The smile (instead of a snarl)

Sammy loves life and it shows. It's hard not to like him when he flashes that huge smile, taps his chest and points to the sky. Sammy's personality will be a huge positive in his favor.

3. Lack of evidence against him

He's never failed a drug test, never admitted steroids use to a grand jury (that we know of) and nobody's written a book documenting his use of drugs. He's guilty of growing a lot bigger muscles and of once using a corked bat. Voters will have to weigh whether that's enough evidence to keep him out of the Hall.

4. 1998

Sure, we look back on that "magical" year with skepticism now, and rightly so, but there's no question that Sosa and McGwire captured the hearts and attention of a nation and revitalized baseball. And While McGwire won the home run race with 70 to Sosa's 66, it was Sammy who was the National League MVP.

5. He's learned from his mistakes

Sosa wore out his welcome in Chicago by forgetting his roots and acting like a prima donna. He has come back to baseball humbled and not at all intent on making himself the center of attention. He doesn't like the steroids questions, clearly, but he does his best to deflect or answer them.

[Pun]

docx said:

....because he's my son and it's my job to guide him....

You mean like this?







Keep in mind the crib is now directly under the logo, so this is the last thing my son will see before he goes to sleep at night and the first thing he will see when he wakes up in the morning.

[The Canadian Content]

I'm not sure I ever exalted you for that, Pun, so...

Exalt!

[docx]

Oh Pun. That's...disturbing.

(I do love the way you included the "TM", though. An excellent touch.)

[Loki]

Yeah, I saw that, too.

This poor, poor child.

Of course, Pun's son may wind up going he way of OBJ's kid and rebel by becoming a Cards fan.

"Daddy? Can you tell me of the legend of Big Mac one more time? Pleeeeeeease?"

[Pun]

docx said:

(I do love the way you included the "TM", though. An excellent touch.)

Hell yeah! I'm not taking any chances on getting busted for trademark infringement. Who knows where the MLB Nazis are nowadays.

[chretienbabacool]

That's awesome. And if he ends up becoming a Cards fan, kick him out.

Also, sorry, that Star Telegram writer is a sheer idiot if he's electing Sammy in because of his smile and the HR chase. Disregarding the steroids issue, if his numbers fit, elect him, if not, don't. But enjoying the game should have nothing to do with the Hall. That's why I really, really hate the Hall election process. To me, it's way too much of a popularity contest.