[Pun]

Saddam's dead!

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has been executed, according to two Arabic language media outlets.

Hussein was hanged before dawn on Saturday in Iraq, at about 6 a.m. (10 p.m. Friday ET), the U.S.-backed Al-Hurra television reported.

Al-Arabiya reported that Barzan Hassan, Hussein's half-brother, and Awad Bandar, former chief justice of the Revolutionary Court, were hanged after Hussein. All three were convicted of killings in the Iraqi town of Dujail nearly 25 years ago.

And people in Baghdad are celebrating as we speak.....

[Batman]

admin said:

And people in Baghdad are celebrating as we speak.....

And people in the US are giving a half-hearted thumbs up.

Maybe now we can go after someone who killed people over here?

Or maybe not...

[The Jewish Cunthead]

I'm giving this a total thumbs up - our generation's Hitler was hung tonight. I would have drawn and quartered him but that's me.

My only problem was he was given more rights and liberties than the people he butchered. I don't think he suffered enough.

[Batman]

By "half-hearted thumbs up," I didn't mean that we aren't sure about giving the thumbs up. I just meant that a "thums up" is an inherently half-hearted reaction--we aren't aren't running out into the streets to shoot off bottle rockets and shout in joy.

Unlike if a certain other person we don't seem to be looking nearly hard enough for were dead instead....

[atothej]

First off, I'm not celebrating or mourning. He is not Hitler, and to make that comparison is short-cited in light of the legitimate genocides that are going on and have recently happened. Granted, Saddam was a murderous bastard, and I'm not saying he was a good guy, but Hitler is Hitler, and nobody comes even close. If you want a comparison that is remotely accurate (in time and activity) you're better off with Pol Pot or Edi Amin.

That said, even though I oppose the death penalty on principle, I'm not really all that disappointed that Saddam got what he got. What does disappoint me is that we set up a judicial system that doesn't reflect our knowledge of what works. The man was hanged without appeal. I know that appeals would have been likely futile, but that is a system that we have developed because it works better than quick killing. If we are going to shepard these people into democracy, it should come with some of the safeguards we have developed through trial and error (mostly error).

Finally, I think the major disappointment I've registered with the Saddam hanging is that they did it too early. I was hanging out with some of my friends tonight and I pitched the wildly successful idea that they should've used Saddam as a makeshift Times Square Ball for New Year's in Baghdad. Think of the television possibilities, especially for a country that is largely religious teetotalers.

Note: This is likely the longest post I've ever made on either board, and it is because it is a topic that is right in my wheelhouse: judicial history and morbid comedy.

[Andy]

sergeial said:

And people in the US are giving a half-hearted thumbs up.

Maybe now we can go after someone who killed people over here?

Or maybe not...

Maybe you oughta check your facts before you go posting moronic unfounded shit, you fucking left-wing retard.









Saddam Hussein piloted American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon. ITS FACT!

These fuckin' liberals...

[Krydor]

I don't recall people dancing in the streets when the Taliban fell, or when Baghdad fell. He's dead, that's good.

I'm too cool to dance.

[GoVols]

Once you get to a million innocent people killed, I think you can be compared to Hitler all you want. And there is video from all around the United States of people dancing in the streets as the news is heard. The man killed millions of people, Iraqi, Irani, Kuwaiti, American, and a host of other nationalities and all I hear on the morning talk shows and in here is "Where's Osama?" from the left.

I'm against the death penalty, except if it's the only way to keep the public safe. Saddam was capable of inciting violence from jail. This is justice.

And I'm with Krydor in being too cool to dance!

[Electric Sodomy]

govols said:

Once you get to a million innocent people killed, I think you can be compared to Hitler all you want. And there is video from all around the United States of people dancing in the streets as the news is heard. The man killed millions of people, Iraqi, Irani, Kuwaiti, American, and a host of other nationalities and all I hear on the morning talk shows and in here is "Where's Osama?" from the left.

This is true. All us lefties got an email bulletin telling us to bring this up. The entirety of the American Left will be sounding this note and only this note today. Why? Because we hate America. ;D

( Does anyone else hate that smiley? It's fucking racist, that's what it is. You know what it says to me, every time I see it? Not, "Ha-ha big grin!" It says, "Me happy Chinee!" )

By the way, where is Osama? Bring him on. Let's roll.

Personally, I think comparing Saddam to Hitler is a waste of alphabet. It's not even close, and it's not appropriate; it's just a reaction to numbers. Based on that rationale, someone could probably make a pretty solid case for Andrew Jackson being the 19th Century American Hitler. Pinochet is Hitler. Somoza is Hitler. Pick a Contra leader: he's Hitler. Idi Amin, Pol Pot and Mobutu Sese-Seko are Hitler. William Westmoreland, Henry Kissinger, Richard Nixon, Curtis LeMay and Robert McNamara are Hitler.

At this point, comparing someone to Hitler just reduces understanding of their crimes.

"What did Saddam do?"
"Oh, he was like fucking Hitler, man."
"Aigh! Kill him!"

Of course, maybe that kind of shorthand is preferable. Otherwise, God knows what sort of responses you might get if you didn't just compare him to superbadman.

"Saddam was fucking evil, man!"
"Oh, yeah, what'd he do?"
"He gassed a bunch of Kurds."
"Wow."
"Yeah, we TOLD him that gas was for Iranians."
"That fuck!"
"I know, right? Totally fucking unacceptable."
"That's a violation of every standard of human rights, dignity and conduct I can think of. Everyone involved ought to be lined up and shot for allowing this to happen."
"Saint Ronald must be rolling in his grave!"

[GoVols]

Gimme a fuckin break. Maybe you did get a memo because you all say the same stupid stuff. And your implication that what Saddam did is all America's fault is such horseshit. Blame America is a pretty standard response. Secular progressives make my stomach turn.

The man was a monster. He knowingly killed millions of innocent people. But you pinkos have to blame America for every evil in the world.

[Electric Sodomy]

govols said:

Gimme a fuckin break. Maybe you did get a memo because you all say the same stupid stuff. And your implication that what Saddam did is all America's fault is such horseshit. Blame America is a pretty standard response. Secular progressives make my stomach turn.

The man was a monster. He knowingly killed millions of innocent people. But you pinkos have to blame America for every evil in the world.

What the fuck does secularity or God have to do with this? I'm happy to have any discussion about Saddam you want, but your invisible friend is irrelevant to it. As for progressivism, if that's a dirty word, feel free to fling it at me all the time.

Hey, look, I agree, Saddam was an evil fuck. I'm glad he's gone. I have problems with the way he got escorted to his dirt nap, but I have no reservations about the idea of killing him in general. And I welcome a recitation of his crimes and justifications for his death. I have no problem with this at all, okay?

But, as you said, the man was a monster. When you fund and arm a monster, you bear some blame. In a normal murder in a normal U.S. jurisdiction, we call this aiding and abetting. It's a recognition of a third party's responsibility. To ignore that here is asinine and represents a willful blindness. I'm not saying Saddam wasn't a monster all his own, regardless of his contacts, funding or suppliers, okay? He was. That's fine. But you can't call him a bad man in a historical vacuum. There's a context at work, and part of that regrettably involves America.

As for "blame America first." I didn't. I don't. You can take that fatwa from Limbaugh Rushdie and cram it. I find it a little rich that you complained about everyone on the left saying the same things, then whipped out a succession of right-wing talking-point buzzwords to make that complaint and smear the opposition. "Secular progressive," "blame America firsters." I suppose it's supposed to be less nauseating when you do it.

If you'll excuse me, I've got to go reverse-racism and tax and spend my moral relativist abortions on demand and without apology. What I'm trying to say is that it's time for me to cut and run.

[Krydor]

The French, Russians and Germans armed Saddam. Must. Find. Chart. It's a compelling chart. 1.3% is the grand total of American weapons.

Saddam didn't happen in a vacuum, that's true. Up until 1979, he was Russia's puppet. He was also in charge of the only country capable of stopping the spread of Iranian backed fundamentalist revolutions.

If only Cold War politics were as simple as a fucking picture of fucking Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand. No one ever bothers with the picture of Chirac and Saddam touring the nuclear plant that France sold Iraq.

[Electric Sodomy]

krydor said:

The French, Russians and Germans armed Saddam. Must. Find. Chart. It's a compelling chart. 1.3% is the grand total of American weapons.

Hey, throw them in the pot and fuck them too. I didn't say they were off the hook. Must. Stop. Mixing. Metaphors. And if I knew where I could get sickeningly hypocritical (but also slightly amusing) pictures of those douchebags and have people understand what the fuck I was talking about, I'd post those too.

[Krydor]

No, America can take responsibility for 1.3% of Saddam's stuff and or things. Seriously, that's about the extent of it. He was sooooooo fucking broke after the war with Iran, he had to invade Kuwait to negate his war debt.

All of which could have been avoided if JIMMY CARTER had propped up the Shah. The bulk of Iran's Armed Forces is still American Equipment, because America funded and armed the shit out of Iran.

Oh, I went there, Mr. Man. A smite for you.

[Pun]

Good to have you here, Jeb! We needed someone else for Krydor to argue with. ;D

[Electric Sodomy]

krydor said:

No, America can take responsibility for 1.3% of Saddam's stuff and or things.

Neato statistic. 1.3% of what? Weapons sold to him? Then what of those given to him? How much money was given to him for the purpose of buying weapons? How much oil was purchased for the purpose of giving him money for it... which would then buy weapons? It's a super number you've found, but it doesn't account for everything, which I've no doubt is why it was chosen. For instance, what kind of weapons? We sold or gave Iraq anthrax and botulism. If the 1.3% of his arsenal was weaponized biological agents, then that 1.3% investment is rather more important than a 10% investment of Kalashnikov bullets. It's a nice number, but I would be very surprised if its lowness wasn't accompanied by a correspondingly low field of measure.

All of which could have been avoided if JIMMY CARTER had propped up the Shah. The bulk of Iran's Armed Forces is still American Equipment, because America funded and armed the shit out of Iran.

We just succeed all over the place, don't we?

Re: Jimmy
I love how when it comes to pacifying Iraq and the right-wing's quagmire there, sectarian violence and passions are extremely difficult things to deal with, with multifarious causes, effects, targets, operators, etc. It sure is a tricky job, and we can't expect it to be over immediately: freedom is untidy and success is something we can't expect automatically.

However, when it comes to Jimmy Carter (that DEMMYCRAT) and Iran, cutting a check and sending some special forces dudes would have turned back the tide of one of the most powerful modern Islamic revolutions. Q.E.D. (To say nothing of magically fixing the Shah's incompetent and corrupt government.)

To sum up:
Freedom and Success Under Republican Watch: difficult, a long slog, not to be expected overnight.

Freedom and Success Under Democrat Watch: would have been automatic, but the Democrats are too pussy to just go take it.


Can I have it both ways, too? I'd like a baked potato some freedom fries on the side with that.

[Krydor]

All's I have is victory toast.

Anyway, the reason for dealing with Saddam in the first place was the loss of the Shah. The success of the Islamic Revolution in Iran was, b'lee it or not, a mistake. The Ayatollah did not authorize the American Embassy hostage taking. No one thought the US would tolerate 10 days of that shit, let alone 444. Oddly, the administration did just that.

Saint Ronald did not help, when he allowed Iran to kill a whole shitload of Marines in Beriut and not retaliate. Thus, the notion of the USA being a paper tiger was born.

The Middle East, in general is a fucked up place. It was fucked up when it was a part of the Ottoman Empire, it was fucked up when the Ottoman Empire was split between the Brits and French. It was fucked up when the British Empire collapsed.

I find the amount of weight being put on the USA for Iraq's fuckeduppedness, well, strange. An ally of convienience abandoned at the end of the Iran/Iraq war in favor of serious fundage of the Saudis (that, also, is seriously fucked up). It seriously is not as simple as a photo of Rummy and Saddam shaking hands.

Few weapons and even less funds were sent to Iraq. Russian tanks, helicopters and jets. French missiles and German chemical engineers. However, that goddamn handshake is somehow responsible for 2 wars.

I smite at thee AGAIN!

[Electric Sodomy]

krydor said:

All's I have is victory toast.

Awwww, I wanted Victory Gin. With cloves.

I was going to smite at you, but I've been using all of mine on Texas. I wanted to mess with Texas. That's right! It was me! It was I! It was MIE!

...

Well, I think that basically we're in agreeancement about the Middle East. Why anyone honestly believes they can fix it in a few years with some money or guns and then get the fuck out is utterly beyond me. Evidently, no one's read a history of the region. I remember reading an interview with someone who was high up in the CPA who, when asked if he'd read The Seven Pillars of Wisdom dismissed it with a line like, "I'm not into self-help books." It's baffling, infuriating and sad, but you can go back through Lawrence's book and see every mistake he made and lesson he learned, and every mistake has been or is in the process of being repeated, and the lessons go unlearned. On both sides of the political fence: ignorance isn't the sole commodity of any one side when it comes to the Middle East. (Witness liberals, primarily Jewish liberals, calling Jimmy Carter an anti-semite for using the word "apartheid" in the title of his book.)

As for the Rumsfeld photo: look, primarily it's bitterly funny. Do I believe that photo or Don Rumsfeld is responsible for two wars? Absolutely not. But I do believe that the political, diplomatic and military attitude that informed that photo is responsible for dozens. Half-assedly arming or funding proxy armies has been incredibly stupid in several cases, but for some reason we like to do it. It keeps our hands clean and Americans from dying, and it's usually far away from home. We like throwing money at problems and figuring that they'll get sorted out on their own. (Call it laissez-faire invisible hand of free-market diplomacy and military policy.) It didn't work with Chiang; it didn't work in Vietnam, South America, Iraq, Iran, or Afghanistan, but we'll probably keep doing it. If we're not willing to sit down and look into all the players and factors in a situation and analyze the repercussions one, five, ten and twenty years down the road, we should just close the purse, walk away and leave the situation the fuck alone. Because it seems like the things we involve ourselves in worsen while things we just walk away from stay pretty much the same.

This was supposed to be much more intelligent, but my wife, grandmother, mother and stepfather have been talking in a semicircle around me, and I've been staring at the same sentence for about five minutes. I'm bailing out here.

[Krydor]

Well, I'm smiting you again. SMITEY SMITE SMITE SMITE SMITE.

All this stems from taking Zyban. Zyban is the single most useless drug in the history of drugs. It does nothing to quell my desire for a smoke, what it does is block the nicotine from entering my brain. Therefore, I'm having a giant nicotine fit and have no way of actually alleviating said nicotine fit.

I'm fairly certain it is your fault, Jeb. Therefore a smite is in order.

[Electric Sodomy]

Yeah, well I just exalted you. Hope that funny taste in your mouth from not having a cigarette and your lungs starting to void mucus that's been trapped in there for probably decades still tastes good with a little guilt mixed in.

[Krydor]

www.floppingaces.net/2006/12/30/the-whole-saddam-execution-vid/

The whole execution.

Yes, as in door opens and Saddam falls through and he hangs there

Exalt for Jeb

[The Jewish Cunthead]

The best part of that site, aside from the Mola Rom-esque chants, was the comment of "That guy is as bad with that camera as my wife" in the trackback section.

[Moreofabreadguyanyway]

The person that filmed it on his cell phone was arrested. I don't understand the controversy of his hanging being filmed. Oh, its OK to brutally execute him, but filming it, no sir, that's far too barbaric. Either hang him and accept the fact that it might be filmed and be OK with that, or don't hang him. Whether or not he should've been hung is the issue, not the fact that his hanging was filmed.

[Ryan Who Loves Punk]

Holy crap this whole argument was awesome. Way to go guys. EXALT! (for krydor because jeb is apparently too cool for the whole exalting thing).

[Krydor]

Smite for you, because I alwas ask myself "WWJD", and Jeb would smite you.