[Lucky]

sergeial said:

I don't find the argument that no non-WWF guy has beaten a WWF guy convincing, for the reasons I said.

Again, its not supposed to be an argument. Its an observation that struck me as a bit odd. I didn't examine the tournament 2-3 weeks ago like you did. I went in expecting a WWE bias and for the final 8 or 4 to be almost all WWE and for me to lose interest. I did expect a few non-WWE guys to sneak into the Sweet 16 and for the 2nd round to have better showing. But I didn't realize how many of them were matched up against each other and how much the seedings really shifted the balance even further in the direction of the WWE.

It makes sense for the most part now that I look at it. I'm not surprised WWE is dominating, especially when most of this board has shown its not filled with WCW, ECW, TNA, Japan, or Indy fans (but strangely its got more WCCW/Texas support than I'd imagine). Its just that the rest of the wrestling world got eliminated a round earlier than I expected. And the strange result of all the non-WWE guys going over other non-WWE guys seems seems weird. Even if its nothing more than coincidence. Or a product of the fans of those companies putting them high enough to avoid the lower 3rd of the tourney but not high enough for the top 3rd, so they all ended up together.

I don't know. This was never an argument. I said that in my second post. Its not "YOU WWE PEOPLE SUCK!" Or "This showdown is a sham!" Or "This has been unfair!" Its just "Damn. I guess the reason that this Showdown has brought me so little joy and so much frustration is because I'm not a WWE guy." And you just seem to correctly be pointing out to me that I should have never expected anything different and probably never should have bothered.

However, looking at the tourney so far, I have to admit that you're right, the voting pool is even more biased toward the WWF than the seeding shows.

You see it by looking at the upsets: There have been only 6 upsets: WWF(12)Owen over WCW(5)Sting, WWF(12)Owen over TNA(4)Joe, WWF(10)Jake over TNA(70)Daniels, WWF(10)DiBiase over WWF(7)Cena, and WWF/WCW(9)Nash over WWF( Hardy. That's two WWF over TNA upsets, one WWF over WCW upset, one WWF over WWF upset, and one WWF/WCW over WWF upset. And the Nash over Jeff upset was barely an upset.

So I agree with you Lucky, the WCW guys--and even more so the TNA guys--have gotten a raw deal.

Ok, I guess now you've shown me that I wasn't entirely wrong to think it was worse than I expected.

[Batman]

I think that it should be kept in mind that the five years or so of WWE being the only game in town had two different effects:

Not only was that time that the voters only got to see WWE guys, but that was also time that the wrestlers had no choice but to be WWE guys.

You made the argument that Eddie and Benoit and Jericho became more WWE guys over that time-period--what I'm getting at is that if there had been someone competing for signing top talent during that time-period somebody who's thought of as a WWE guy would have established themselves as something else.

TNA has been starting to draw--and build--top talents in the last couple of years. But it just hasn't quite been long enough for us to really think of Angle or Christian or Booker as primarily TNA guys. If we considered them TNA guys, the non-WWF contingent would seem to be doing much better. I would contend that in a few years that would be the case, and on top of that one or two other guys on the list as WWE guys might have defected for long enough to be thought of as TNA guys, too.

Although, personally I think it would be fair to say that Christian Cage has been higher on the card for TNA for long enough to be thought of as a TNA guy now . . .

[Lucky]

But Jericho, Benoit, and Eddie all split WCW of their own accord. Same with Big Show. They were in WCW and they had success of varying levels. But they all left before the company died and joined WWE because they wanted to, not because it was the only game in town. They spent more time in WWE than WCW and they were already well on their way to becoming bigger stars (or already were) when WCW died and the Invasion began. So much so that Big Show and Jericho were WWE guys fighting the WCW invaders (Benoit was hurt and Eddie was gone as best as I can tell).

Booker and Rey Mysterio are different stories to me. They came into WWE only after WCW was dead and when it was WWE or bust. They spent time there and had main event runs. Rey even reached his highest booking points and won his first world title. But I still think they are more WCW guys who had WWE runs. Jericho is a WWE guy who had WCW and ECW runs. Benoit, Eddie, and Show? Those are more iffy to me. They reached their peaks in WWE and spent more time there than in WCW, but when you list Benoit's accomplishments you don't gloss over the Best of Seven, the Horsemen, Kevin Sullivan, Bret Hart, and other stuff. So I'm happy to call them dual company guys even when I categorize Jericho a "WWE guy."

Booker and Angle will never be TNA guys to me. The Dudleyz will never be TNA guys to me just as they never were WWE guys. Sting will never be a TNA guy. The guy you named I can see different is Cage. Given that he became a main eventer and won world titles in TNA, and that I think he is EASILY TNA's MVP of the last year and probably more important than anyone in WWE was to it. A few more years in that position I can see Cage being a "WWE/TNA guy", and maybe some day being a "TNA guy." The only other WWE guys in TNA currently I see in that position are Tomko and Matt Morgan. And Tomko did so little in WWE that I already consider him a "TNA Guy" just as I did Ron Killings very quickly.

But to Cage is a TNA guy now? That feels remarkably short sighted for a guy who spent 8 years in WWE and has never done anything in TNA as historically significant as Edge & Christian or TLC matches. 2 years in TNA and a couple of World Title runs tops that? Even when his WWE name was enough to plug him DIRECTLY into the World Title picture in TNA (as he was ready to break through in WWE and their refusal to do it is why he left) and when his 1st year in TNA was widely considered a failure.

[Batman]

I can see what you're saying about Jericho and Eddie and Benoit, but what I'm saying is that if there had been someone really competing with WWE for talent over that time period, somebody would have switched and made their biggest impact at the other place, whether it would have been those guys or other guys that are currently thought of as WWE guys simply because for that time period they couldn't have been anything else.

Re Cage: Sure the TLCs were big matches, but Christian was never the star of the match. And his spot in TNA wasn't because of what he had done in WWE, but based on what he ought to have been doing, but wasn't getting the push there, (which is kind of what you said, but I think that is more of a reason to think of him as a TNA guy.) And, I know I'm probably in the minority, but I loved Cage's first year in TNA. He and Joe were the reasons I watched. So, yeah, I think of him as a TNA guy.

And I think that if Angle remains in the main event picture of TNA for the next few years, and TNA grows significantly in that time period, a case could be made that he built TNA to a major promotion, and that would be an even bigger achievement than his amazing first year in WWE. So, yeah, depending on how things go, I can see possibly thinking of Angle as a TNA guy in a few years.

[Lucky]

If Angle is clearly the guy (or one of the key guys) who helps TNA rise to a WWE competitor, than yeah. I can see him becoming a WWE Guy. But given his age and (IMO) TNA's distance from being that I don't see Angle being the star of TNA like say Hogan was of WWF when they busted big in the '80s. If he's "the man" or even the foil to the man, then ok. But even then its gonna be tough for that to top his WWE legacy.

Hogan's actually the one guy I thought there could be SERIOUS debate over my listings for (besides Nash). After all, he spent 10 years in WWF and was the biggest reason they became what they are. Hulkamania was born there and became what it was. But he also spent 6 or 7 years in WCW and was the biggest reason they stepped up to become a peer, started Nitro, and was the key to the nWo. Nitro, the nWo, and Hollywood Hogan was born there and became what it was. So I could have seen an argument made for Hogan to be a WWE AND WCW Guy. That seems like the best hope for Angle becoming a TNA guy. Being the main cog in the company growing, a key part of something huge, and maybe a real reinventing of himself.

But this is about legacies. Angle's legacy is WWE now and its big enough to doubt that he'll top it in TNA. Even if you loved Cage's 1st year in TNA like I loved his 2nd that's still just 2 years. I'm not doubting that Cage can become a TNA guy and presuming TNA and he last strong I expect it to happen sooner rather than later. I just don't think his TNA legacy has surpassed his WWE one yet.

And yeah, it was his talent and persona that allowed him to become an immediate star in TNA. But that was forming and becoming big in WWE. Just like Jericho was breaking out and becoming a star in WCW even if WCW wasn't treating him as such. It allowed him to walk right into WWF with a ton of momentum and become an immediate star. And the same can (and I expect will) happen with Cage. But if you had asked me whether Jericho was a ECW, WCW, or WWF guy in 2000 I probably would have called him a 3 way split at best.

Time is the difference between them right now. But Jericho also never did in ECW or WCW what Cage did in WWF with Edge & Christian. That IS one of the top tag teams of the last 10 years if not #1 (of course, in a period where tag wrestling was down). Jericho was funny and good, but so were they.


I'm not arguing your other point that guys could have become something other than WWE guys if things had played out differently. But it is what it is. WCW died, TNA wasn't born for 3 years, and has only seemed to become a legitimate "alternative" in the last 2 years or so.

Of course the real question would be, what the fuck is Jeff Jarrett? WCW or TNA?

[Batman]

It's funny how we go back and forth and slowly drill down on the areas where we actually disagree, which turn out not to amount to that much.

I just don't think that time is what makes a legacy. Look at it this way: if this were two years ago, I doubt that Christian would even be in this thing. Sure his time in TNA has been relatively brief, but its made a much bigger impact than however much time he toiled in the midcard in the WWE.

And Jarrett? Are you serious? How can his legacy at WCW possibly compare to the one he has with TNA? He carried TNA on his back for years.

[Lucky]

He sucked and TNA fans despised him for half of that, though. Jarrett, Booker, and Steiner were the "new face" of WCW when the vets were finally falling aside. That all 3 were vets themselves was almost funny but they were the main eventers that WCW was making when for years Goldberg and DDP were it. JJ was "The Chosen One", a moniker and character he carried into TNA. Of course if you didn't really enjoy parts of WCW 2000-2001 like I did then maybe its more cut and dry for you. He was the backbone of TNA for 4 years but for at least 2 of those he shouldn't have been and most didn't want him in that role. AJ was primed. Killings was there. Raven's "Destiny" was in the mix.

I mean, I'm a TNA mark so me saying this may sound weird. But yes, JJ carried TNA for awhile. But for much of that what he carried sucked ass and he was a reason why. And he carried WCW for at at least 18 months as well. And that sucked ass a lot too, but seems like the same thing. Then again maybe I'm one of the few JJ fans who dug him well before then and dug his Horsemen stuff and wanted to see him form the anti-Horsemen Armageddon stable.



I agree, time isn't what makes a legacy. Its quality and quantity. Tomko and Killings were in TNA for about 4 months each before I decided they were TNA guys because their WWE legacies were shit. But I do think time plays a role, especially in the perception. 10 years in a company vs 5 years leaves an impression. If that 5 was better? Maybe that leaves a larger impression... but 10 might just win out if the 5 isn't THAT much better.

I think Cage can easily overcome his 7 years in WWF/E with a few years in TNA. I just don't think he has yet. Obviously you liking his 1st year when I thought it was largely a mess affects our difference of opinions in that regard. I could go my whole life without ever seeing that face title run again and I'd be happy. I'd also welcome a retrospective of Cena's recent face run in its place.

But I really do think that in 6-24 months I'll say "Christian is a TNA guy with a WWE run." Because the truth is, as great as Edge & Christian were and as historically significant I think they were Edge really has stepped beyond that and "Edge the Main Eventer" is something different like "HBK" is not a "Rocker". And I think Christian clearly started that change when he started talking shit about Cena and really kicked it into high gear when he formed his Coalition. Again, that year or so as a face I rather just pretend didn't happen.

[Batman]

Well, it looks like Taker is going to win his rematch with Andre pretty handily, so unless something really surprising happens the sweet sixteen looks like this:

Charlotte
1) Ric Flair vs 4) Hulk Hogan
2) Chris Benoit vs 3) Eddie

Pittsburgh
1) Kurt Angle vs 4) Edge
2) "Stone Cold" Steve Austin vs 3) Bret Hart

San Antonio
1) "HBK" Shawn Michaels vs 4) "Macho Man" Randy Savage
2) Triple H vs 3) The Undertaker

Hollywood
1) The Rock vs 12) Owen Hart
2) Chris Jericho vs 3) Mick Foley

I put my favorites in bold, and my picks but that I don't feel as strongly about in italics.

Right now there's only one dark horse in the race, 12-seed Owen Hart. He's probably not getting any further, though. Not only is he up against the Rock, but he's earned the ire of the fans of Sting and Joe, who he upset to get this far.

I'll be surprised if any of the 1 seeds get upset in this round, but I wouldn't be surprised if all of the 2 seeds get upset. Eddie and Bret have the lead in their match-ups, and I know I'm going to be campaigning hard for Foley to upset Y2J. (Hi, Riot!)

So, who thinks that the 1-seeds will win all four brackets? Of the four of them, I think Rock is most vulnerable, but that could be just bias. Bret has done really well against strong competition, and could pose a real threat to Angle, too.

[DevSop]

Michaels isn't winning San Antonio I think. I think that's HHH to lose right now and if Andre almost beat Taker, I think HHH gets by him rather easily and I think HHH has a bigger legacy thank HBK at this point. In ring is probably Michaels but I think HHH easily handles him with regards to promos and aura. Not to say anything negative about HBK because I am a fan, but HHH is one of the best I've seen tell a story when he's on his game.

I'd prefer if Edge won Piitsburgh, but that won't happen so Angle's as good a choice I could hope for. The other 2 worry me because I don't care enough about either.

I'm really meh on the other two brackets. Flair, Hogan, Benoit, Eddie...whatever. They're all legit choices.

And in Hollywood...LET'S GO NUGGET...so what if you never should have even been in the tournament. So what if your death makes you better than an icon like Sting. So what if your moronic intelligence made you forget a harness strap, it totally means you're a better worker than arguably the best wrestler in the world today in Joe. You're a NUGGET DAMN IT so Rock, Y2J, and Foley better know their damn roles. The Slammy Award Winning moron who doesn't know how to clasp a harnass is winning this mother. As long as he doesn't bounce off another turnbuckle that is.

[Batman]

Don't forget--

Owen 3:16 says that I told you I was going to do a standard piledriver, why would I do a tombstone piledriver? that's the Undertaker's finisher, so it's not my damn fault that you just broke your neck!

[Tommy]

I think I'm just gonna vote for Owen now from here on out. If he can beat Sting and Joe? Why not Rock? This way when Owen wins the whole thing people can laugh.

[Lucky]

I am absolutely voting for Owen over the Rock. Fuck it. I want him to win this tournament now. He already went over one icon and one of the best of his generation. Lets go over another icon. I never liked Rock that much anyway.

OWEN! OWEN! OWEN!

[Mikey]

So we're down to the regional finals in one half of the bracket:

Ric Flair vs. Eddie Guerrero
Kurt Angle vs. Bret Hart

I will try to have the other four Sweet 16 showdowns up by this afternoon. I'd planned on playing golf today, but I fucked up my back yesterday afternoon doing yardwork.

So... hopefully later today:

The Rock vs. Owen Hart
Chris Jericho vs. Mick Foley
Shawn Michaels vs. Randy Savage
Undertaker vs. HHH

[National Champion Chris Cole]

Rock, Jericho, HBK, and HHH for me.

[The Jewish Cunthead]

metallikid said:

Rock, Jericho, HBK, and HHH for me.

QFT although I wouldn't be that upset if Foley beat Jericho.

[DevSop]

OWEN

Jericho, HHH, and HBK for the others

[salmonjunkie]

Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, , Undertaker

As far as The Rock vs. Owen Hart, I'm undecided. I will need to be swayed.

[DevSop]

Owen is the best of all time. If you need swaying, just watch Owen's greatest moments at Kemper Arena as he sways down on his bungee cord and bounces 35 feet into the air. THAT is workrate at its peak.

[Tommy]

salmonjunkie said:

Mick Foley, Shawn Michaels, , Undertaker

As far as The Rock vs. Owen Hart, I'm undecided. I will need to be swayed.

Owen beat Sting
Owen beat Samoa Joe
Owen freefell 80 feet from the top of the Kemper Arena to the turnbuckle
Owen was better on the mic than Bret Hart
Owen was the Motherfuckin' Blue Blazer

[salmonjunkie]

MORE SWAYING!!!!
(those are all good points, BTW)

[Fire-Babe]

are we done with the run off yet?

[Lucky]

O-WEN!

O-WEN!

O-WEN!

[bdbdbd]

Damn nugget really won't flush.

[Tommy]

salmonjunkie said:

MORE SWAYING!!!!
(those are all good points, BTW)

[blink]NUGGET![/blink]

[Mikey]

REGIONAL FINALS

Charlotte: Ric Flair vs. Eddie Guerrero
Pittsburgh: Kurt Angle vs. Bret Hart
San Antonio: Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H
Hollywood: The Rock vs. Chris Jericho

Gut feeling tells me the top seeds all advance, with Bret and Jericho having punchers' chances against Angle and the Rock.

We'll open these up on Tuesday, run them thru the week, and then run the Final Four next week, with the championship the first week of April.