[williamssl]

We're down to the final four in our effort to crown the greatest superhero EVER! And not surprisingly (to me at least), we have our top four seeds facing off.

This matchup has the Marvel's top guy, Spiderman, going up against DC's #2, Superman. Webs vs. heat vision. Spidey sense vs. super strength.

Cast your vote and your smack here, and refer to the appropriate Up Next thread for possible guidance.

Wouldn't be complete without this:

• You're voting for who you think is the greatest superhero, or the greater of the two.
  
• You can only vote once.
  
• The poll will close at 9 pm Eastern on Fri, Nov 17, so have your vote in by then for it to count.
  
• If you're undecided, let people know that so they can try to swing you one way or the other.
  

[Batman]

Stop, stop, stop! Give me a chance to make a case for Superman. Give me an hour to write something up. Even if you think you're 100% with Peter Parker, just give me an hour or so.

[Batman]

A few weeks ago there was a DC v Marvel thread OOver there. A lot of people made the argument that Marvel's heroes were like real people you could relate to, but that DC's were like gods--even Batman, in his way. I think that's only half of the story. DC's greatest characters--especially Superman and Batman--have two sides, two faces. They represent the merging of opposites. Now I'll concede that Clark Kent (like Bruce Wayne) is often characterized as merely a put-on for the sake of privacy and the safety of loved ones. But maybe that's just what he'd like to think.

But even if you take that completely at face value, still the defining image of Superman is: an ineffectual nerd enters a phone booth, a transformation occurs, and the man who emerges can do anything.

Superman says that even if you feel like this:

This is inside of you:

[Batman]

Can't we all just get along?

[salmonjunkie]

But even if you take that completely at face value, still the defining image of Superman is: an ineffectual nerd enters a phone booth, a transformation occurs, and the man who emerges can do anything.

Clark Kent is a superhero who pretends to be a nerd. Peter Parker is a nerd who tries to be a superhero.



Parker wins.

[Ryan Who Loves Punk]

OK, I think that Spider-man's (Thanks Salmon, I was wondering whether to spell it with a hyphen or not) defining characteristic was how being a superhero affected his personal life, right? They were the first to do that sort of thing. This is important, though, so I'm gonna hold off on voting till all the arguments are in.

Also, Ultimate Spider-man rules.

[Krydor]

Going with the Big Blue Boyscout. I like Spider-Man, but there is no contest.

[Deleted]

Cutting and pasting from the thread that never took off:

In a fight? Probably Supes. But this is a "best super-hero" thread. Peter Parker/Spidey is one of the all-time best-written comic characters. He's a "real person" with "real problems". More people can "identify" with him because of this.

And as always, with great power comes great responsibility. One of the best tag lines ever.

Not to mention Aerosmith and The Ramones both did pretty sweet covers of the old Spidey theme, too.

And honestly, I'd argue that the Spidey movie music is at least on the same level as the Superman movie music, even if it has yet to become as iconic.

[The Canadian Content]

Fuck Superman.

[OpTard]

who's house? SPIDEY's house!

[Krydor]

Comic Book Geeks Don't Care About Immigrants

[salmonjunkie]

Well, Krydor, Superman is the ultimate immigrant, then. An ILLEGAL immigrant, no less. That damn fence-jumper should go back where he belongs, just like Elian Gonzalez.

Spider-Man is from Queens, New York. USA! USA! USA! USA!

[Lucky]

Fuck you Supes! Suck it!

Really, serg. Your great arguement was that Superman PRETENDS to be a nerd? When he's going against Peter Parker? Weak.

[Batman]

No, I was acknowledging that he is sometimes portrayed as only pretending, but I disagree with that perspective. I think that the ineffectual nerd is an important side to his character, representing our fears, where the Superman side represents our wishes.

[Lucky]

Which seems like a silly stand to take when he's going against Spider-Man. He is the ineffectual, unpopular nerd whose life is a mess. He dons the mask and is a hero. Seems like the same story, only with some more hurdles and human ramifications. That heroism only further hampers his personal life. Clark Kent suffered with Lois Lane because she thought him unreliable and flakey and all together pathetic when compared to his peers, not to mention Superman. Every relationship Peter had worked like that.

Plus Spidey then has the extra characteristic of his heroism never truly being appreciated. Not only is he unable to be the same man personally as he is as Spider-Man. Not only does his life as Spidey hamper his personal life. But Spider-Man himself is persecuted and hated by many. And many of those people are the ones closest to him. His boss, his best friend, and his surogate mother. Superman is loved and respected by all. Clark has to deal with the unfortunate circumstances of the chick he digs respecting and being into one side of his identity but not the other. Peter's got people hating both sides of his life.

Supes' parents love him and are proud of his achievements. Spidey's thinks he's a menace with the mask and irresponsible under it.

Screw the boy scout. He has it easy.

[salmonjunkie]

but again... using that argument against Peter Parker?

[Loki]

Lucky, I'm going to play devil's advocate with a few of your points.

1) Ever since Pete became an adult (and he's been an adult since at least the 80s, if I remember right) he acts the same as Pete as he does as Spidey. Same demeanor, same jokes, same basic everything. He doesn't leap into battle as Peter, but Supes don't do that either when he's Clark.

2) Aunt May knows who he is, now (That storyline rocked, by the way. If you haven't read it I suggest you pick it up). I know that for the longest time the push/pull between him and May was a major plot device, but that has now shifter to May trying to reconcile Peter'd dual life.

3) Sure, Clark has Lois. But Pete had Gwen. AND he nails a supermodel whenever he feels like it.

I get what you're saying, though. For the majority of his career your points come into play. But Peter's aging and growing up, so not all those point apply anymore. It would be interesting to have this conversation again in twenty years to see which Peter is more predominant.


Damn, this one is tough. Superman IS the hero. If I were a non-comics fan it'd be Superman, easily.

But Spider-Man is in a league all by himself.

=====================
Here, how about this argument:

Spider-Man, while a good guy, struggles with his hero side. There's been countless times he's hung up the webs, or wanted to hang up the webs, or questioned what he does with the whole Spider-Man thing.

Superman, on the other hand, never questions what he does. He may question how he does it, and the overall effect he is having, but he doesn't have the same hero angst that Peter does.

Spider-Man is a man who tries to be a hero. But he is first and foremost Peter Parker.

Superman, on the other hand, is first and foremost a hero. Being a hero is what he does. It is who he is.

[OpTard]

Spider-Man is a man who tries to be a hero. But he is first and foremost Peter Parker.

Superman, on the other hand, is first and foremost a hero. Being a hero is what he does. It is who he is.

i slightly disagree with that assessment. i think it's based on a fairly old interpretation of superman/clark kent.

clark kent isn't a nerd or a clumsy goofball, hasn't been portray that way really since the seventies, when the original movies were made. since the 80's clark's been portrayed as a fairly normal guy. still inferior to superman, but for not other reason than that all humans are inferior to superman. but in the comics, as i said going back to the 80's, in the animated series, in lois & clark and in smallville, clark is portrayed as what he's really supposed to personify, and that's average (until, of course, superman returns, where bryan singer felt instead of doing his own interpretation of superman, he'd rather just copy donner's). clark SHOULDN'T be overly clumsy or nerdy, because the whole point of clark is to blend in. it's why the glasses disguise works. he's just so average that you don't pay enough attention to him to notice he's superman. the clumsy act draws attention, albeit negative attention that one wouldn't associate with superman, but attention nonetheless. attention that would make people remember your face.

oddly enough, the best description i've ever seen or heard of the superman/clark relationship came from an episode of lois and clark. as dumb as that show was, this was one thing they got perfect. it was when lois found out clark was superman and she was going on about how he lied to her by putting on this act and pretending to be this person when he's really superman. and clark, trying to explain that it wasn't an act or a lie simply said "clark kent is who i am, superman is what i can do." quite frankly i can't think of a better way to say it than that.

[Lucky]

loki, you're right about Peter/Spidey maturing. And his relationships changing. No doubt, adult Peter Parker turned into a pretty cool dude and has a pretty good life. But the same exact thing holds for Clark/Supes, doesn't it? Clark Kent is a pretty cool dude now too. Respected in his field, well liked by his coworkers, lots of friends. Married Lois who now helps keep his secret and loves him more for it. His parents always were in on it. Do Pete Ross and Lana Lang know? If so, a larger circle (although wasn't Ross Ruin or something?). And the DC Universe is so close now that he also has all the other heroes who are his friends and peers and respect him greatly. As much as Peter's matured and his life's improved Clark's has as well and probably more. Peter Parker became a school teacher married to a model/struggling actress. Clark Kent became a successful reporter married to one of the most respected and beautiful women in the world.

Besides, we're not voting for 2006 616 Spider-Man vs 2006 DCU Superman. Its Spidey vs Supes. And the classic interpretation of Clark and Peter are what they are. They've been redone in recent years for the big screen. The Peter character was reproduced with most of those key plot points for the Ultimate Universe. I imagine the Clark character might have been redone for some side story like Justice. Even if the primary versions have matured the classic interpretations live on.

[Loki]

Good point. I was thinking of the here and now, but the classic interpretation is what they are, at least for this voting.

[Batman]

salmonjunkie said:

but again... using that argument against Peter Parker?

Sorry, man. I didn't design the case specifically for Kal v Peter, this is just the first time Superman's had strong enough competition to need a case made for him. I was just trying my best to explain why I love the Superman character so much.

I understand why people don't. He can come across as arrogant, square, and self-righteous. (One of the awesome things about him is that he (or his archetype) can so easily be played as a heel if the story calls for it--like in Gruenwald's Squad Supreme or in DKR.)

But I think a big part of that is that people see him as looking down on us--all of us--quite literally. I don't see it that way, though. I think that he's flying up there waiting for us all to join him. Because he may not be technically human, but what he represents is human potential. The potential in each of us to overcome our fears, surpass our perceived limitations, and be a hero in our own way.




Also, he was first.

[Loki]

I completely see where you're coming from, Serg. Superman is more than just a hero, he's an ideal. He's who people can look up to. We've toss around the word "icon" quite a bit in these debates, but Superman IS the icon.

He's been called "The Big Blue Boy Scout", as if that is some sort of insult. I don't see it that way. He wants to do good, he has a positive outlook, he stops to visit his parents, he helps little old ladies across the street and will fly down to save kittens from trees - how exactly is this a bad thing? Numerous characters in the DC Universe state how he puts people at ease, how everyone (except for maybe Batman and WW) defer to him in most situations, how a compliment from him is praise from on high. He's seems like the best humanity has to offer, even though he isn't technically a human.

[Lucky]

I, on the other hand, in no way see where you're coming from. Because how many heroes are less human than Superman? How many have less reason to fear or less limitations put on them? Spider-Man sacrifices his personal life for his sense of responsability. Batman fights crime so that others don't have to suffer the way he did. Captain America fights for ideals and a country he loves and beliefs in entirely and actually DOES surpass his human limitations to do so. Superman is just being who he is. He has this assload of power available to him and he uses it to do good, like his parents told him to (both Earth and Kryptonian). Sure, I commend him for doing the right thing and dedicating his powers to good and being humble enough about it. He could be an arrogant shit. Or he could be a selfish shit. He chooses not to be and that's great. But everyone else with powers does the same thing. Supes isn't doing anything that these others aren't.

So how is he showing us how we can surpass our limitations and be all that we can be? He's just using the skills given him in the right way. Commendable but not exactly inspirational.

I don't think Superman looks down on us. I never did. He considers himself one of us. Cool. Whatever. Should I applaud him for that? His race is dead and he was raised with us. His parents taught him right. He has great ideals. That doesn't set him apart from any of these guys. There are quite a few "boy scouts" or folks with great ideals rolling around. Superman isn't a better person than Spidey or Cap or Barry Allen or whoever. He's just got more power. I'm not going to give him credit for NOT being an asshole or abusing his advantanges.

I've never for a second understand what anyone sees in Superman to put him at the top. At least anyone who reads comics. For the non-comic fan I understand the appeal of THE hero. But every possible compelling story or plot I see in Superman exists in plenty of other heroes who make harder decisions, face greater hurdles, overcome greater fears, and take on greater risks. Fuck Superman.

And all of these guys were around when I was born. So I don't care who came first.

[Batman]

I'm not sure if I can explain it better. I think it's mainly that I don't look at things like this all that literally.

I mean I can say that we're all Clark Kents and that there is a Superman in everybody. But obviously I'm reading something into it, and maybe I'm just making shit up--since Clark Kent doesn't literally change anything but his clothes.

That's the neat thing about Captain Marvel (the Shazam! one)--in his case the transformation is a literal one. Still, Superman just has more oomph than Captain Marvel, and I do think that's because he was first.

Anyway, I don't think that if I had done a better job talking up Superman it would have made a difference. I was expecting this one to be close, but it looks like it's not going down that way. That's two of my favorites in a row, first Captain America, now Superman.

Well, if Superman had to fall, he fell to one hell of a guy. Spiderman is definitely one of the greatest. The finals are going to be interesting.

[Lucky]

I misspoke. I get your point. I get the idea of what you're saying. I just don't get why Superman should be a top 10 example of it. I'd feel the same way about Captain Marvel. He's not some great story of the hero within all of us. He's a kid who says a magic word and gets empowered by crazy forces and turned into a superman. Hell, he's literally driven and inspired by those magical forces (wisdom of Solomon). Or at least that's how I've always understood it. I admit I've never read Captain Marvel/Shazam outside of some key crossovers (whatever that "all the adults become kids" one that involved Young Justice), his brief JL membership in the '90s, and his JSA membership and relationship with Stargirl. If I'm off feel free to correct me.

Hell, Spider-Man's not even a GREAT example of it. He's given superpowers in some freak accident. Spidey and Supes both more tell me the story of using your power well and for the benefit of others than this "you can all be heroes" thing. That's probably in fairness belonging to the guys without powers. Daredevil, Batman, Green Arrow, whoever. Daredevil's a handicapped guy who can still use his skills to save lives and fight crime.

Which is not to say that I don't think it exists in the powered heroes either. Spidey does overcome his own personal shortcomings, frailitys, and lack of confidence and becomes a hero. I GUESS Superman does too except that he is inherrently holding himself back as Clark. Spidey wasn't for Peter. He was that loser before he was ever Spider-Man (where as Clark was superpowered before he was an average guy). If anything his powers probably complicated his life. But I NEVER imagined that people were reading Superman as some sort of personal empowerment story. I've always figured he was the shining example of an ideal, not what we can aspire to do. Because we can't. We're not even the same species as him. We, as "Clark Kents", can never be "Supermen." There is not a Superman in me, Peter Parker, or Tim Drake. But there might be a Batman in Tim Drake. Hopefully without all the antisocial brooding, manipulation, trust issues, and mental/emotional bagage.

But hell, I don't want to be Batman either. I don't even want to join the Reserves. I'll go to a soup kitchen or work for Habitats for Humanity to feel like I'm doing something decent with my life.

I just watched the Spider-Man 3 trailers so I'm all jazzed up. If Batman clears through to the finals I have no idea what to do.